Turn Based and Action JRPGs
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« on: January 16, 2014, 09:03:01 AM »

Y'know what I really fucking hate? People coming to me with this absurd idea that Action JRPGs are "evolution" of turn based JRPGs.

That's a load of shit. I play the two of them for 2 completely different reasons.
Turn based is more methodically, more on strategic and thinking, and has RNG, something I can play at a leisurley pace.
Action is more fast and instantaneous with no RNG.

The two are very different, and should be allowed to co-exist, it'd be much better than these hybrids between the two where we have full 3D movement and shit, but attacking is still done from a menu, and attacks can still miss even though my sword CLEARLY cut through that dood.
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2014, 09:16:22 AM »

It's cool to not like that and all, but there are people who like it, so you're sort of falling on deaf ears here..
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 09:28:55 AM »

Turn based is more methodically, more on strategic and thinking, and has RNG, something I can play at a leisurley pace.

Dark Souls?
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 09:30:34 AM »

Fine whatever, keep the hybrids, but this idea that they, and action jrpgs are the evolution of turn based, it's causing less and less turn based jrpgs to be.

Like, besides Pokemon, Dragon Fantasy, what other turn based jrpgs came out last year?

Dark Souls?
It has RNG can can be played leisurely?
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 09:38:14 AM »

It has RNG can can be played leisurely?

Well, yes.
I haven't even done alot of story in Dark Souls, i've just been walking around, exploring, meeting new foes.
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2014, 09:41:16 AM »

Do you know what RNG is?
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2014, 09:43:23 AM »

Do you know what RNG is?

Random Numbers Generator?
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2014, 09:45:27 AM »

Well it's not a turn based game.

Besides, I already said I dun like Dark Souls.
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2014, 09:57:09 AM »

Well it's not a turn based game.

Besides, I already said I dun like Dark Souls.

I know I know
I'm just pointing out it does exactly that as an action RPG.
In a turn-based rpg you have to learn and memorize attack patterns as well... soyeah


THAT SAID...
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SHADOWRUN RETURNS
A CRPG THAT WAS FUNDED WITH KICKSTARTER
YET IN THE END NO ONE REALLY GAVE FUCKS ABOUT.

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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2014, 09:58:52 AM »

Like, besides Pokemon, Dragon Fantasy, what other turn based jrpgs came out last year?

Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory?
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2014, 12:02:52 PM »

No one plays Hyperdimension Neptunia. Dammnit, Tana.

I, for one, prefer my turn based systems. Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, Fire Emblem: Awakening and Pokemon X are all games with spots on my Top 10 Games of All Time list. Kingdom Hearts II, Skyrim and The Last Story are not.
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2014, 01:24:57 PM »

Fire Emblem is a strategy game, and Skyrim is a WRPG
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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2014, 01:49:02 PM »

Fire Emblem is a strategy game, and Skyrim is a WRPG
Excuse me? Then what, pray tell, makes an RPG an RPG?

Because I sure see a turn-based battle system in Fire Emblem.

I have no idea what a WRPG is.
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2014, 01:56:33 PM »

I have no idea what a WRPG is.

Western RPG
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 01:58:50 PM by TheGameNinja » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2014, 02:20:39 PM »

Excuse me? Then what, pray tell, makes an RPG an RPG?

Because I sure see a turn-based battle system in Fire Emblem.
You command a large amount of units on a grid where you must position them to attack foes right? That's a turn based strategy game, as opposed to real time strategy games like Starcraft where there is no grid, but rather an open map where units can move freely.

WRPG=Western RPG like TGN said.
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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 03:23:13 PM »

You command a large amount of units on a grid where you must position them to attack foes right? That's a turn based strategy game, as opposed to real time strategy games like Starcraft where there is no grid, but rather an open map where units can move freely.

WRPG=Western RPG like TGN said.
So then what makes an RPG an RPG, exactly?
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 04:05:00 PM »

Well, RPG=Role Playing Game
They're video games where you play out the role of a character on a grand quest. One key feature of an RPG is the levelng system to give a sense of progression as you become more powerful as you fill out your role on your quest...

But as time went on, other games start becoming story focused and using a leveling system, so rightly so, the idea of what a RPG is very skewed nowadays...

Sorry, I honestly can't properly answer that right now... I'll get back to you on that.
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2014, 06:45:40 AM »

Actually Fire Emblem IS a RPG.
Strategy RPG or Tactical RPG.
XCOM Enemy Unknown/Within and Disgea are actually the same genre as Fire Emblem.

Borderlands is also a RPG.

The whole genre thing is becoming kinda... silly... games do so many things nowdays.
Almost every game has some form of character progression and an advanced story nowdays - which is what originally made RPGs... RPGs. Back when games were just... blue good robot shoot evil robots.

I'd say an RPG is a game where you have the power of choice - and the choices are a necessity.

Should Micheal level his healing ability and Jeffery his strength?
Should you take the side quest for extra cash?
Should you give Milena the Orb-Suit, or should I give it Nancy?

You get the idea.

Quote
A game is a computer RPG if it features player-driven development of a persistent character or characters via the making of consequential choices.

EDIT
Also, I think the terms 'JRPG' as well as 'WRPG' are really... ehhh...
Like, you're categorizing games by their land of origin...

Is that implying that no one japan could develop a first-person Action RPG game like Skyrim?
Is that implying that no one in america could develop a turn-based RPG game like Bravely Default? Or would that be a JRPG?  

No wait, it was right there... 'Turn-Based RPG' & 'First-Person Action RPG'...
Hm.

Or am I missing something?
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2014, 10:18:47 AM »

For once Kyo and I agree on something.

Though if I hear anyone using that Extra Credits argument I'm going to punch them.
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2014, 11:31:08 AM »

words of sense
Well that's a perspective of the "issue" that I can get by.

Though if I hear anyone using that Extra Credits argument I'm going to punch them.
I get where the got the idea, but eh.

I just know I like the anime looking ones which just so happen to mostly come from Japan.
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« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2014, 06:44:20 AM »

No one plays Hyperdimension Neptunia. Dammnit, Tana.


They should, it's a great game.

--

Quote
WRPG

Quote
JRPG


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« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2014, 07:27:45 AM »

Well ma'am, there's a clear enough distinction between the two that I think the differing genre titles is necessary.
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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2014, 07:56:32 AM »

The only difference is country of origin.

Anyone can make any game they want. Any artstyle, any subject matter, any setting, any mechanics they want. They are not bound to a set of rules determined by the place in which they live.

So you can kindly fuck off. ^^
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« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2014, 08:05:19 AM »

The only difference is country of origin.

Anyone can make any game they want. Any artstyle, any subject matter, any setting, any mechanics they want. They are not bound to a set of rules determined by the place in which they live.

So you can kindly fuck off. ^^
It's a generalization, you salty asstart.
Sure anyone is allowed to make one, sure, but it's called a JRPG because many RPG games from Japan share similar elements and using the term makes it easier to explain.
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« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2014, 08:08:30 AM »

I dunno about that.
Japanese RPGS tend to have a more distinct way of telling their stories, doing their cutscenes, handling their combat, and choosing their art style than Western RPGs, right down to the voice acting.

I mean, when it comes to story focused projects like these, culture does take a big part in the production, and the difference in culture between those in the East, and those on the West seems to make them produce art of different and distinct results.

At least, that's what I've noticed.
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« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2014, 08:10:08 AM »

That doesn't make it correct.

I dunno about that.
Japanese RPGS tend to have a more distinct way of telling their stories, doing their cutscenes, handling their combat, and choosing their art style than Western RPGs, right down to the voice acting.


No, that's just you being ignorant. I can understand the culture part, but this is total bullshit and you know it.
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« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2014, 08:12:34 AM »

That doesn't make it correct.
Doesn't inherently make it wrong, either.
We could call them Titty Sprinkle Role Playing Games if you wanted. Would that make you feel better?
Pokemon X for best TSRPG of 2013.
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« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2014, 08:19:35 AM »

No, that's just you being ignorant. I can understand the culture part, but this is total bullshit and you know it.
Arlight then, why don't you come up with a better acronym then?

How would you distinguish between them then?

Someone who doesn't like Elder Scrolls, but likes Persona? Doesn't like Mass Effect, but likes Ni No Kuni?, Doesn't like Dragon Age, but likes Final Fantasy?

Call them Realistic RPGs and Anime RPGs?
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« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2014, 09:37:03 AM »

How would you distinguish between them then?

You Don't
Do what Kyo said and define them by sub-genres. They're all RPG's, but they have different elements, none of those defined by where they come from.

"realistic RPGs and Anime RPGs"? Do you know how many people have done a double-take when I tell them Dark Souls is a Japanese game? How about Deep Down, would you call that a JRPG?  That's just an example of where lines become blurred between "JRPG" and "WRPG", as you call them.

oh hey, why don't we start calling other genres by their location too? Let's all call Zelda a JAdventure game, and Mario a JPlatformer!  Gran Turismo is a JRacing game! DMC is a JBeatem'up! Metal Gear is a JShooter!



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« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2014, 09:42:00 AM »

You Don't
Do what Kyo said and define them by sub-genres. They're all RPG's, but they have different elements, none of those defined by where they come from.
I thought JRPG was an RPG subgenre?

Either way it's just a name to make explaining things easier so I don't feel as strongly about it as you guys do.
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« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2014, 09:43:19 AM »

So do you also call all forms of animation "cartoons"?
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« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2014, 09:46:05 AM »

If JRPG was a subgenre, then that subgenre would also have sub-subgenres. So no, it's not.
So do you also call all forms of animation "cartoons"?

you can call it whatever you want, but it's all animation. The fuck is the difference?!

They're moving images, some of them even share art or story similarities. Saying otherwise is what most people would call "Being a fucking weeaboo".
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« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2014, 09:55:59 AM »

JRPG is an excuse to make the japanese stuff feel distinct, the same way the term anime is used- the same way people get furious when call them otherwise.

It shouldnt exist, since it only encloses said games into a blob of prejudices and things they 'need' to have.
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« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2014, 10:00:17 AM »

Pretty much what Kyo said.

The terms are known to cause confusion in general, and they just don't make sense. Every game is it's own self-contained adventure and it falls under a vast variety of different categories in terms of style, mechanics and subject matter. But really, in the end those terms are almost like a video game version of a stereotype..

They're a limiting factor in society caused by ignorance and they shroud over what something really is, and can be, and they ruin it.
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« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2014, 10:02:26 AM »

Well, from my viewpoint, I think they're needed like all genres.

I mean, if everything is allowed to just be everything with no form of filter, it'll just make it even more difficult to find things we like without some serious assistance.

It's difficult enough finding gems that have recently become my favourite things ever even with these names to narrow down my searching...
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« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2014, 10:06:32 AM »

That's what sub-genres are for. That's why they were made in the first place. Anyone can make anything, but that's not to say it's got to be "RPG" and nothing else. Did you know that many games have more than one genre?
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« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2014, 10:11:58 AM »

You mean like turn based strategy RPGs like Fire Emblem?
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« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2014, 10:16:12 AM »

Sure. There are a lot, try to name them all.

You'll be here for a while... if more people used these subgenres or multiple-genres in their searches for new games to like they'd be better off than going "I want a new JRPG"
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« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2014, 10:21:46 AM »

But what if by "New JRPG" they're specifically talking about a lengthy story focused game with a levelling system that looks like anime(not cartoon) where the main character is his/her own person and not you?
And thus, don't care if it's action or turn based, strategy or shooter?
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« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2014, 10:32:16 AM »

What if it was made by a western developer?

Next question please.

besides a lot of games could fall under that description and still be COMPLETELY different, thus giving them no relation at all.

And there you go using the Anime vs Cartoon thing again. Pathetic.
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« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2014, 11:06:43 AM »

What if it was made by a western developer?
Th-That doesn't answer my question... I'm asking in which direction would you point them? If we can come up for some other word for this other than JRPG, I think that'd be great.

besides a lot of games could fall under that description and still be COMPLETELY different, thus giving them no relation at all.
If there are alot of games that fall under that description... how are they unrelated?

And there you go using the Anime vs Cartoon thing again. Pathetic.
Alright, instead of "anime" since you apparently hate that word soo much, I'll say video game with an art style that cannot be seen in real life where the characters are overly expressive and disproportionate but look close enough to a real human that it is possible to imagine them real, and the main characters have weird crazy hair styles and have big wide round eyes and small lips.



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« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2014, 11:34:51 AM »

I think it's a lot better to not fall into the stereotype territory and instead judge games by what they should be judged by, mechanics and story. (Example of mechanic, shooter, turn based, etc... example of story.. drama, horror, mystery.. etc)

The reason they are related is because as you said, they involve an exaggerated, semi-realistic artstyle, involve a character that isn't you, a levelling system, and have a significant length and engaging story.

But.. exactly what is it? A Shooter? A Beat-em up? Strategy? Adventure?

Those features can be part of many games.

-Artstyle
-Progression
-Story
-Developed Character
-Mechanics??
-Content??

I mean what is this game? Final Fantasy Or Borderlands? And in the end, will you like it, just because it contains those features, regardless of what kind of game it is?

So yeah, let's say you don't care if it's Action, strategy or shooter. Can't you just then observe what the game looks like rather than putting it under a false "genre" that will then go ahead and confuse those who actually do care?

And then in the circumstance "JRPG" is used, like Kyo said, it then brings expectations and alienates anything not within those expectations, it becomes not only a false genre but also a non-inclusive one. If "Anime" style RPGs are JRPGs as you say, then what is a game like Dark Souls? is it not Japanese?

it means suddenly games that contain next to identical gameplay or mechanics can suddenly be turned into different genres set apart from each other because of their style or country of origin, and games that are mechanically completely different can be part of the same genre just because of how they are structured.
That's the whole issue here.  People truly believe that games from one or the other culture /MUST/ be how they are, and they can never be different, because of this false categorisation.

Likewise, anyone who wants to look for a specific game may end up finding games completely different to what they want because of false categorisation. It hurts expectation, it hurts growth, and it hurts the end user in many ways, more than it helps them.
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« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2014, 12:04:46 PM »

I think I see the problem here.
In this discussion, you're talking about soley the video game part of the video game, whereas I'm trying tho factor everything.

I understand being up in arms about this JRPG vs. WRPG thing because by the end of the end of the day, all the RPGs generally play alike between levelling up and stuff.

What I'm trying to get at, is the problem of finding similar things among the video games other than the underlying core mechanics, like, back in my
Arlight then, why don't you come up with a better acronym then?

How would you distinguish between them then?

Someone who doesn't like Elder Scrolls, but likes Persona? Doesn't like Mass Effect, but likes Ni No Kuni?, Doesn't like Dragon Age, but likes Final Fantasy?

Call them Realistic RPGs and Anime RPGs?
Example, I've met legit people who don't play some games, or watch some movies for that matter cause they commonly "look a way" that they don't like.

I.E. What I was trying to get at was that I wanted some way to address these "JRPGs" and "WRPGs" when they specific thing they're talking about is that one uses the art style they like. Because I know it's not tied down to wherever you live, just look at Kappa Mikey or Dragon's Dogma.
Sorry for the confusion...



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« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2014, 02:05:51 PM »

Ok, ok. I see all of this and JUST to leave this here I'd like to just say my viewpoint and input. I really don't think games should be categorized based upon origin. I mean sure, I do admit that most RPGs I tend to enjoy come from Japan, and, share an anime-esque style of art. But in the end I think altogether a game is just a game. I mean, I agree with what Kyo and Tana say about subcategories. I just think in the end, a game should just be known more for itself than based upon general guidelines of similar games. Not sure if I was very clear, but I hope you guys kinda get the gist of what I'm saying.
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« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2014, 04:30:21 AM »

I'm not talking about basing games in categories so that they can be met with some prejudice, I'm talking about putting similar games in categories so that they'll be easier to find.

And thus I'm asking if you want to abolish "JRPG" cause the concept of "being made in Japan" putting it in it's own genre screams bullshit to you, which it rightfully should, what then can we call them?
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« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2014, 06:06:40 AM »

what then can we call them?

The Genre they are.

Turn-Based RPG.
Strategy RPG.
Action RPG.
Flubber RPG.
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« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2014, 07:26:03 AM »

So what you're saying is to ignore the art style entirely and don't include it in the genre naming?
Cause I know some people who'd disagree with you.
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« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2014, 08:34:13 AM »

So what you're saying is to ignore the art style entirely and don't include it in the genre naming?
Cause I know some people who'd disagree with you.

I'm saying to use the fucking genre, jesus christ.
JRPG doesnt mean Anime-styled characters and group-combat - it means japanese role-playing game.

Dark Souls, a JRPG - also a Action RPG - just oozes anime and a group combat?
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« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2014, 08:36:09 AM »

I-I thought we already got past that I agreed the country part should be dropped...
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« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2014, 08:43:45 AM »

I-I thought we already got past that I agreed the country part should be dropped...

You're talking about artstyles, to my understanding?

Let's take Tactical / Strategy RPGs for example...

Someone researches about the genre and finds out about Fire Emblem: Awakening, XCOM Enemy Unknown and Disgea. He'll just chose the one he thinks is the coolest? no?

He gets Fire Emblem, thinks its cool, beats it, wants more, gets Project X Zone or Disgea.
Or he gets XCOM Enemy Unknown and is out of luck and has to settle with Fire Emblem: Awakening.

Do you want it to be called Anime RPG? Because that'd make even less sense.
That'd be like... calling of Call of Duty a 'Blockbuster FPS'
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« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2014, 09:07:41 AM »

Do you want it to be called Anime RPG? Because that'd make even less sense.
That'd be like... calling of Call of Duty a 'Blockbuster FPS'
Is this a bad time to tell you people do that?
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« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2014, 10:03:00 AM »

Is this a bad time to tell you people do that?


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« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2014, 10:22:47 AM »

Well, unless you build a human extermination machine, these kinda people are here to stay.
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« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2014, 11:04:17 AM »

Well, unless you build a human extermination machine, these kinda people are here to stay.
I believe those are called Gas Chambers.
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« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2014, 11:05:30 AM »

Does it have a "People I don't like" filter?
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