That Feminist Gamer Girl Did a Thing (DERAILED)

[shadowDOESrock]

Well, their writing is bad because it's sexist. And I don't think that someone is a bad writer just because they don't know how to write good female characters. It's possible that they excel at certain forms of writing and not others. But if you're gonna be writing female characters, maybe you should know how to write good ones.

Hmm, I have to disagree. Aside from things like Duke Nukem, I think these female characters are mostly a result of a bad writer. A good writer would write good characters and scenarios, without ever resorting to the typical tropes that sexualise women or anything.

Either that or the publisher is telling them to have a strip club or sexy scene, because that sells according to the numbers. There have been games that werent greentlit because games with fem-protagonists don't sell too well.

And why does a game like Hitman need a nude scene?

Just by the type of story it is. It's like James Bond.

[Hakudamashi]

Not being sexist isn't something that every developer should strive to be but may never reach, it's something that should be a baseline requirement when making a game.

Cool, so how about you get somebody to right it in the official law of writing a videogame story? Cause you can't.
It's like, freedom of speech, you can't just get up and tell someone not to write something cause it displeases you, unless you're the one funding the project.
Y'know who is funding it? Publishers, and the people that are into it and buy it in stores and Steam and wherever.

Sometimes you have to dwell on the bad if you want things to improve.

You can also improve things by spreading the knowledge of all the good that exist, convince people to prefer it over the alternative.
Forcing it will only result in rebellion.

That's a terribly selfish viewpoint to have. You think we should just ignore all of these problems because they don't affect you?

I'm ignoring it because I don't care. And I don't care because I have many games that aren't sexist, and more on my want list that I've yet to get.
Women being in abusive relationships, and pets being run over on the streets don't affect me, but I sure as hell don't ignore those issues.

Well, their writing is bad because it's sexist. And I don't think that someone is a bad writer just because they don't know how to write good female characters. It's possible that they excel at certain forms of writing and not others. But if you're gonna be writing female characters, maybe you should know how to write good ones.

Or they just want their game to have more bewbs.

And bad writing is bad writing if they do nothing with the sexist story.

And why does a game like Hitman need a nude scene?

pfft, why wouldn't it have a nude scene?

[Elija2]

Cool, so how about you get somebody to right it in the official law of writing a videogame story? Cause you can't.
It's like, freedom of speech, you can't just get up and tell someone not to write something cause it displeases you, unless you're the one funding the project.
Y'know who is funding it? Publishers, and the people that are into it and buy it in stores and Steam and wherever.

No, obviously we can't force someone to change their game even if the change would be an improvement, but then that person isn't really interested in making the best game that they can, are they?

And again, why would publishers or consumers be mad at a developer for making a game with strong female characters?

You can also improve things by spreading the knowledge of all the good that exist, convince people to prefer it over the alternative.
Forcing it will only result in rebellion.

How many alternatives are there to games like Assassin's Creed? That is, how many open-world stealth/parkour games set in different time periods that don't use sexist tropes are there? Because finding one is definitely a much better solution than just telling developers what is bad in their games.

Seriously, what problem do you have with people talking about sexism in videogames? You keep saying that we shouldn't force a discussion because it will start a rebellion. Well, I guess you're right because there already is a rebellion. People are sending death threats to people speaking out about these issues in gaming, so I guess people should just stop talking about them? What will that accomplish?

I'm ignoring it because I don't care. And I don't care because I have many games that aren't sexist, and more on my want list that I've yet to get.

So again, you don't care because it doesn't affect you.

[Hakudamashi]

No, obviously we can't force someone to change their game even if the change would be an improvement, but then that person isn't really interested in making the best game that they can, are they?

It would be an improvement to you. And it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't care about the game.
Maybe he/she has a really fun game mechanic, but because reasons he/she's gotta put in a story n' shit, so they just write about what's on their mind.
I mean, last time I checked, you don't need some masters in story telling to make a video game.

And again, why would publishers or consumers be mad at a developer for making a game with strong female characters?

Publishers? Cause they don't sell.
Consumers? Many reasons, possibly for the same reasons they don't wanna play a video game with a black man.

How many alternatives are there to games like Assassin's Creed? That is, how many open-world stealth/parkour games set in different time periods that don't use sexist tropes are there?

Or you can play and appreciate that Assassin's Creed? There are many games that don't even make it out of the drawing board or cancelled. One would say you're lucky Assassin's Creed is still persisting to suit ur taste, while others are still waiting for their Beyond Good and Evil, or Psychonaughts, or Captain Commando, or Turok.
But to answer your question, excluding the time travel part, there's inFamous, Sly Cooper, Spiderman 2, off the top of my head.

Because finding one is definitely a much better solution than just telling developers what is bad in their games.

I'd say it is.

Seriously, what problem do you have with people talking about sexism in videogames?

In addition to what I've said before, I also don't see it as sexism in video games, I just see bad writing and good writing.
If I may, I think calling out sexism is masking the real issue of developers and publishers that don't care about their work, as long as they get their money. And that is caused by several factors out of our control, and has caused more issues that just sexism.

You keep saying that we shouldn't force a discussion because it will start a rebellion. Well, I guess you're right because there already is a rebellion. People are sending death threats to people speaking out about these issues in gaming, so I guess people should just stop talking about them? What will that accomplish?

Well, one thing you can try is make sure non-sexist games outsell the sexist ones, that'll get the publishers' attention.
Secondly, as I'm sure I've said before, praise harder the games that do it right(not pretentiously), and convince more and more people to also want those kinds of games.
Teach the children the Dos and Do nots, cause they're gonna be the next game devolpers, so if you get them to appreciate non-sexist games, then they're grow up to make them.
Get more women(that care) involved. Men write about man things, women will write about women things.
This is not something you can fix overnight by just raising awareness, this, just like most other issues of prejudice, will take generations to fix.

Simply blurting out "we're against sexism" is just gonna cause backlash, like the anti-gay movement.
There's a right and wrong way to go about everything.

So again, you don't care because it doesn't affect you.

Sure Elija, it doesn't affect me, that is the reason why I don't care.
Like how I don't care about my relative with cancer, or my brother struggling with work, or my parents getting old, or the Xbone doing bad in Japan, or Notch leaving Mojang.
Eeyup, they don't affect me, therefore I shouldn't care, and thus, I don't.
how the fuck can you say that to me?

[Elija2]

It would be an improvement to you. And it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't care about the game.
Maybe he/she has a really fun game mechanic, but because reasons he/she's gotta put in a story n' shit, so they just write about what's on their mind.
I mean, last time I checked, you don't need some masters in story telling to make a video game.

How is leaving out sexist tropes not objectively an improvement?

And would that person still write their story if they knew that it was sexist? Unless they're fine with being sexist, I doubt it. Which is why people are raising awareness about sexism in videogames. If a developer knows that something in their game is sexist, they won't put it in their game.

Publishers? Cause they don't sell.
Consumers? Many reasons, possibly for the same reasons they don't wanna play a video game with a black man.

But what about games with male lead protagonists? Will people not buy those games because there's a strong female NPC?

Or you can play and appreciate that Assassin's Creed? There are many games that don't even make it out of the drawing board or cancelled. One would say you're lucky Assassin's Creed is still persisting to suit ur taste, while others are still waiting for their Beyond Good and Evil, or Psychonaughts, or Captain Commando, or Turok.

Okay, but people can enjoy games while also being critical of them. And I have no idea why you're bringing up that other stuff. People can't be critical of Assassin's Creed because at least it exists?

In addition to what I've said before, I also don't see it as sexism in video games, I just see bad writing and good writing.
If I may, I think calling out sexism is masking the real issue of developers and publishers that don't care about their work, as long as they get their money. And that is caused by several factors out of our control, and has caused more issues that just sexism.

It's bad writing because it's sexist. That's the point.

How is talking about sexism in games masking any other issues?

Well, one thing you can try is make sure non-sexist games outsell the sexist ones, that'll get the publishers' attention.
Secondly, as I'm sure I've said before, praise harder the games that do it right(not pretentiously), and convince more and more people to also want those kinds of games.
Teach the children the Dos and Do nots, cause they're gonna be the next game devolpers, so if you get them to appreciate non-sexist games, then they're grow up to make them.
Get more women(that care) involved. Men write about man things, women will write about women things.
This is not something you can fix overnight by just raising awareness, this, just like most other issues of prejudice, will take generations to fix.

Simply blurting out "we're against sexism" is just gonna cause backlash, like the anti-gay movement.
There's a right and wrong way to go about everything.

Having a game without tropes doesn't sell copies. Better sales isn't the reason developers should avoid sexist tropes; it's to avoid making people uncomfortable and to make a better game.

People do praise games that do it right. As I said, the Feminist Frequency videos point out examples of games without sexist tropes. Gaming journalists have also written articles praising games with strong female characters like The Last of Us and Gone Home.

Getting more women interested in game development isn't easy, and I've already gone over the amount of harassment they're victims to. Besides, you don't need a woman on the team to avoid sexist tropes.

Nobody is just blurting out "we're against sexism", because obviously everybody should be against sexism. People are specifically pointing out examples of sexism in games so that developers know what is wrong. You're saying that we shouldn't do that because it'll cause a backlash, so instead we should do all this other ridiculous crap (ensure that sexist games don't sell, teach kids not to be sexist, get more women interested in an industry that treats them poorly). We gotta do all this other shit just so that we don't upset the poor little sexist assholes on the internet. How is that even remotely fair?

Sure Elija, it doesn't affect me, that is the reason why I don't care.
Like how I don't care about my relative with cancer, or my brother struggling with work, or my parents getting old, or the Xbone doing bad in Japan, or Notch leaving Mojang.
Eeyup, they don't affect me, therefore I shouldn't care, and thus, I don't.
how the fuck can you say that to me?

You literally said that you don't care because you play other games that aren't sexist. You gave me no other reason. What was I supposed to think?

[Hakudamashi]

K so.
What I'm getting at is that there are people who still believe "Get back in the kitchen". You may not like them, but they're still human beings with rights.
There's stuff for them, and there's stuff for us. That's the magic of the worldwide market, there's something for everyone.


If your mission is to get developers who give a shit to know what they did wrong, then that's cool.

[Elija2]

K so.
What I'm getting at is that there are people who still believe "Get back in the kitchen". You may not like them, but they're still human beings with rights.
There's stuff for them, and there's stuff for us. That's the magic of the worldwide market, there's something for everyone.


If your mission is to get developers who give a shit to know what they did wrong, then that's cool.

Wait, was your whole problem with this just that you don't want sexy anime babes to go away?

[Hakudamashi]

Wait, was your whole problem with this just that you don't want sexy anime babes to go away?

Wha-

K so.
What I'm getting at is that there are people who still believe "Get back in the kitchen". You may not like them, but they're still human beings with rights.
There's stuff for them, and there's stuff for us. That's the magic of the worldwide market, there's something for everyone.


If your mission is to get developers who give a shit to know what they did wrong, then that's cool.

How th-

Sure, whatever you say man.

Imeanit'snotlikeIhavehentaiforthatoranything.

[Elija2]

You said that developers should be able to make sexist games if they want to, but sexism is a terrible thing. Why would you be okay with that unless there were games that you enjoy for their sexist tropes?

[Hakudamashi]

Because writers, developers, just like any other artist, should be free to tell the stories they want to tell.

Creative freedom.

[Elija2]

Because writers, developers, just like any other artist, should be free to tell the stories they want to tell.

Creative freedom.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that what they're doing is okay and people have the right to criticize them.

[Hakudamashi]

Well of course you have the right to critique, that's what freedom of speech is about(I think).

[Elija2]

So do you still think sexism in videogames is a non-issue?

[Hakudamashi]

I still don't care if that's what you're asking.

[Elija2]

So again, you don't care because you only play "non-sexist" games (aka it doesn't affect you).