That Feminist Gamer Girl Did a Thing (DERAILED)

[jkid101094]

She apparently played people for saps. I'm not surprised but disappointed.

[Hakudamashi]

I really don't understand why this dissinance between male and female still prevails.

Buut yeah, people with social agendas forcing their beliefs on a hobby they don't even like...

[shadowDOESrock]

So, recently the NPD reported that Hardcore players make up 20 percent of gamers, Light Core 24 percent, and Casual players compose 56 percent. Gamers are evenly split with 51 percent men and 49 percent women.
The Key here is that the large majority of Casual players are female.

Now, we all know the most common complaints

- Women are not being taken seriously in game development
- Women are often sexualised or relegated to secondary characters
- There are not as many hardcore female players because said games directly target the straight male

Do I think moves like Samus in SSB4 are clearly sexist? Yeah. Do I think it is big of an issue as it is made out to be? Not really.
I actually dont like female characters sexualised, unless it makes sense in context (Zero Suit Samus).

I also can't help but to notice that female characters really are often relegated as secondary characters, or if they're in the lead role often are sexualised with rare exceptions.

As for women not being taken seriously in game development / journalism...
While I'm not in the business, I highly, very highly doubt they're not being taken seriously.
We're not in the 60s.

I'm going to sound like a dick here, but I'm assuming most reports are coming from females not getting their articles published / game pitches greenlit / job application accepted, similary to the 90s (and stil going) group of black people who blame all their issues on white people.

On the other hand, reports like the E3 Afterparty being strippers going all out, do seem make a light on bigger issues around.

Anyhow, it also undeniable that most games target the generic straight male, with rare exceptions like Remember Me and what not. Guns, explosions, big men punching each other. You get the idea. There are a few games that were explained to me as 'gender-neutral' - most of which seem to come from Nintendo, like Pokemon and Zelda. I can clearly see why this would be.

Now, I disagree mostly with Anita Sarkeesian, but that's mainly because the examples she uses are just plain horrible and stupid....
but she does have a point most of the time.

One other thing - are men not just as sexualised? How often do we get a not uber-hot, muscular pretty boy as main character?

Is it really wrong for these games to target the generic straight male, when the majority of consumers are just that? Or is exactly that the issue?

Honestly, I dont even know what to exactly write here. I just hope to get a proper discussion going.
I already know Winds' take on this, but what is your guys' take on this?

[Elija2]

- Women are not being taken seriously in game development

This is unfortunately true. There was a Twitter campaign a few years ago where women working in the games industry spoke out about their terrible experiences. These aren't people hoping for a job in the industry, these are people who have been working in the industry for years.

- Women are often sexualised or relegated to secondary characters

This is also true. I think Anita's videos do a good job of pointing out examples of sexism in games. And men aren't sexualized nearly as much as women in games. Having an attractive character isn't sexist, but having a character whose only purpose is to be sexy is.

- There are not as many hardcore female players because said games directly target the straight male

Again, this is true. Not that there is anything wrong with targeting straight males, but a little diversity is always nice. Games like Grand Theft Auto and Assassin's Creed don't need to solely target males. It would help if there were more female game designers working on these games.

[Hakudamashi]

Well you know me, I think it's a complete non-issue.

If it really upsets people, then the market will change to suit the needs of the audience.

If it were a real issue like the fight for gay rights and racism and the witch hunts, then things woulda changed a long time ago(which they have).

[Elija2]

Well you know me, I think it's a complete non-issue.

If it really upsets people, then the market will change to suit the needs of the audience.

If it were a real issue like the fight for gay rights and racism and the witch hunts, then things woulda changed a long time ago(which they have).

You don't think that women being harassed in the industry is a problem? You don't think that the sexism in videogames themselves is a problem?

And why do you think people are making a big deal out of it? Raising awareness of the issues is the only way for change to begin.

[Hakudamashi]

You don't think that women being harassed in the industry is a problem? You don't think that the sexism in videogames themselves is a problem?

And why do you think people are making a big deal out of it? Raising awareness of the issues is the only way for change to begin.

People being harassed anywhere is an issue
Sexism in and of itself is an issue

Raising awareness is one thing, but there's a right and wrong way to go about everything, and I am simply do not have the information to join in this act of change. From where I am standing, video games seem to be at the same level of everything else in the entertainment industry.

The change will happen when the people want it to happen, forcing it will only result in an equally harsh backlash.

[Elija2]

People being harassed anywhere is an issue
Sexism in and of itself is an issue

Raising awareness is one thing, but there's a right and wrong way to go about everything, and I am simply do not have the information to join in this act of change. From where I am standing, video games seem to be at the same level of everything else in the entertainment industry.

The change will happen when the people want it to happen, forcing it will only result in an equally harsh backlash.

Yes, sexism is an issue everywhere, but that shouldn't stop people from speaking up about it specifically in regards to videogames.

People want the change to happen now, that's why they're speaking up about it. I fail to see how doing this will result in a backlash.

[Hakudamashi]

Yes, sexism is an issue everywhere, but that shouldn't stop people from speaking up about it specifically in regards to videogames.

People want the change to happen now, that's why they're speaking up about it. I fail to see how doing this will result in a backlash.

It's a business, and it needs to make money.
It's target audience are straight white males, so they make games for straight white males.
From what little I know of what's  going on, that vibe I'm getting is that these straight white males are being told to fuck off and let these other people in, rather than to be more accepting of diversity.
I.E. instead of asking for a coexistence of sexualised girls and the proper girls, the message instead is to stomp out all that to make way for what a group of people feel is right. That's a takeover, not a compromise, and those never end well.

Another factor as to why I'm not joining this "fight" as it were, is that I find this movement very biased against itself and unfocused.
Whenever I hear of this, I hear people screaming about all the bad examples of women in video games, but hardly any of the good examples.
I'll hear mention of Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball and not Dead or Alive the fighting game.
I'll hear mention of Princess Peach being a total tool, but no mention of Chie Satonaka.

How can you go on a movement demanding more of something, when you don't even acknowledge what you already have?

Personally, I think that should be done, is first of all bringing to light all the video games that do characters justice, then afterwards encourage more females to join in the game industry.

[Elija2]

It's a business, and it needs to make money.
It's target audience are straight white males, so they make games for straight white males.

Games that target straight white males don't have to be sexist. And if you're condoning continued misogyny in videogames so that your games can sell more, that's terrible from both a business standpoint and an ethical standpoint. I mean, if someone refuses to buy a game because there are strong female characters in it, then that person is a dumbass.

From what little I know of what's  going on, that vibe I'm getting is that these straight white males are being told to fuck off and let these other people in, rather than to be more accepting of diversity.
I.E. instead of asking for a coexistence of sexualised girls and the proper girls, the message instead is to stomp out all that to make way for what a group of people feel is right. That's a takeover, not a compromise, and those never end well.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would anyone want both bad female characters and good female characters? Note that nobody is saying that attractive female characters are bad.

Another factor as to why I'm not joining this "fight" as it were, is that I find this movement very biased against itself and unfocused.
Whenever I hear of this, I hear people screaming about all the bad examples of women in video games, but hardly any of the good examples.
I'll hear mention of Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball and not Dead or Alive the fighting game.
I'll hear mention of Princess Peach being a total tool, but no mention of Chie Satonaka.

How can you go on a movement demanding more of something, when you don't even acknowledge what you already have?

Personally, I think that should be done, is first of all bringing to light all the video games that do characters justice, then afterwards encourage more females to join in the game industry.

Why should people scream about the good examples? Nobody is denying that there are good female characters in videogames, but the amount of bad female characters hugely outnumbers them. Saying that we should talk about the good characters instead is just being dismissive. If someone says "Sonic 06 sucks ass", you don't respond with "But the Genesis games are good! Let's talk about those instead!" We know they're good, but don't try to change the subject.

And you've still said nothing about the real women working in the industry who are being harassed. Is that a non-issue to you because it happens everywhere?

[Hakudamashi]

Games that target straight white males don't have to be sexist. And if you're condoning continued misogyny in videogames so that your games can sell more, that's terrible from both a business standpoint and an ethical standpoint. I mean, if someone refuses to buy a game because there are strong female characters in it, then that person is a dumbass.

A game being sexist comes from the writer, maybe he was pressured to do it from the publisher, or maybe that's what he felt comfortable talking about, we don't know, what I do know is that I don't buy games like that cause I find them annoying, and the gameplay tends to be not that great too.

And why would someone be a dumbass for not wanting to play a game like that? It's his/her preference and his/her money.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would anyone want both bad female characters and good female characters? Note that nobody is saying that attractive female characters are bad.

For the same reason people play bad games like Ride to Hell Retribution I guess. Maybe they want to laugh at it with buddies, or maybe to grow a better appreciation for the good games. Maybe by keeping the bad people can be reminded of what not to do, or maybe it's a guilty pleasure for some people that like poorly written shit.

Why should people scream about the good examples?

I'd imagine for the same reason good examples are normally given, to present a proper alternative, or to better explain why a bad thing is bad. I believe that when telling the "Do nots", you should also tell the "Dos" so that people can have a better understanding of what exactly is wrong, and what can be improved on. To only complain about what's wrong, to me, comes off as whiney.

Nobody is denying that there are good female characters in videogames, but the amount of bad female characters hugely outnumbers them.

I'm truly sorry if I come off insensitive, but that applies to almost everything. With more and more games being made, that more likely means the good will become harder to find. Like movies, for every 10 popcorn action flick that uses every cliche' and seterotype in the book, you get that one masterpiece that knocks your socks off.

Saying that we should talk about the good characters instead is just being dismissive.

I'm sorry I gave that impression, I meant to say that we should speak about the good as much as the bad, if nothing else than to remind people that videogames are not a misogynistic culture.

If someone says "Sonic 06 sucks ass", you don't respond with "But the Genesis games are good! Let's talk about those instead!" We know they're good, but don't try to change the subject.

Well first of all, why bring up Sonic 06 when Sonic Team hasn't made that big of a flop in a long time, secondly, I wouldn't mention the Genesis games as I'm pretty meh about those, I'd more bring up Sonic Unleashed or Lost world to show that 3D Sonic can still work.
And it's not exactly changing the subject since I don't know the context, for all we know it coulda been a discussion about Sonic Team in general and there's that one Negative Nancy that won't shut up about Sonic 06, yes, we get that it's bad, but in 2014 you're really just beating a dead horse and it can get on some people's nerves.

And you've still said nothing about the real women working in the industry who are being harassed. Is that a non-issue to you because it happens everywhere?

I've said nothing about it cause I know nothing about it.
What I do know is that harassment in general is not a good thing wherever it happens, and I'm also under the impression that there's also a legal system in place to deal with that sort of thing, and I won't even dare to ask why not just fire the harrassers.

[Elija2]

A game being sexist comes from the writer, maybe he was pressured to do it from the publisher, or maybe that's what he felt comfortable talking about, we don't know, what I do know is that I don't buy games like that cause I find them annoying, and the gameplay tends to be not that great too.

And why would someone be a dumbass for not wanting to play a game like that? It's his/her preference and his/her money.

You think that a publisher pressured a developer to make a sexist game? Or that the writers just felt comfortable writing sexist characters? Uhh...yeah, maybe in extreme cases like Duke Nukem but I doubt that's happening most of the time. Most likely the writers just don't know that they're being sexist. That's why people are raising awareness so that developers will know better in the future.

You don't think that someone avoiding a game just because it has strong female characters is bad?

For the same reason people play bad games like Ride to Hell Retribution I guess. Maybe they want to laugh at it with buddies, or maybe to grow a better appreciation for the good games. Maybe by keeping the bad people can be reminded of what not to do, or maybe it's a guilty pleasure for some people that like poorly written shit.

There will always be schlock games out there, but that's not what games should be trying to be. If you're trying to make a good game (as most developers are) then you should be avoiding sexist tropes.

I'd imagine for the same reason good examples are normally given, to present a proper alternative, or to better explain why a bad thing is bad. I believe that when telling the "Do nots", you should also tell the "Dos" so that people can have a better understanding of what exactly is wrong, and what can be improved on. To only complain about what's wrong, to me, comes off as whiney.

But people do do this. The Feminist Frequency videos for example do show a few good examples in each video.

I'm truly sorry if I come off insensitive, but that applies to almost everything. With more and more games being made, that more likely means the good will become harder to find. Like movies, for every 10 popcorn action flick that uses every cliche' and seterotype in the book, you get that one masterpiece that knocks your socks off.

So? As I said, just because it's a problem everywhere doesn't mean it's not worth discussing solely in the context of videogames. And either way, you don't think that we should be trying to reduce the number of clichés and stereotypes in our media? Why would you not want more "masterpieces"?

Well first of all, why bring up Sonic 06 when Sonic Team hasn't made that big of a flop in a long time, secondly, I wouldn't mention the Genesis games as I'm pretty meh about those, I'd more bring up Sonic Unleashed or Lost world to show that 3D Sonic can still work.
And it's not exactly changing the subject since I don't know the context, for all we know it coulda been a discussion about Sonic Team in general and there's that one Negative Nancy that won't shut up about Sonic 06, yes, we get that it's bad, but in 2014 you're really just beating a dead horse and it can get on some people's nerves.

You're missing the point. People are talking about bad female characters in videogames. To come out and say "We should talk about the good female characters instead" is being dismissive.

And I still don't understand why you think sexism isn't a problem in the videogame industry. It seems like you're just scared to lose

[Hakudamashi]

You think that a publisher pressured a developer to make a sexist game? Or that the writers just felt comfortable writing sexist characters? Uhh...yeah, maybe in extreme cases like Duke Nukem but I doubt that's happening most of the time. Most likely the writers just don't know that they're being sexist. That's why people are raising awareness so that developers will know better in the future.

Oooohhhhh, so it's a movement to make the developers who give a shit realise they made a mistake? Ok, I can get behind that.

You don't think that someone avoiding a game just because it has strong female characters is bad?

That's not really any of my business... If they're not into that, they're not into that.

There will always be schlock games out there, but that's not what games should be trying to be. If you're trying to make a good game (as most developers are) then you should be avoiding sexist tropes.

Agreed, along with other stereotypes. Although while I would like well written characters and scenarios, gameplay should be the primary concern.

But people do do this. The Feminist Frequency videos for example do show a few good examples in each video.

Well you've been going out of your way to find videos about this topic, I only watch the ones that come my way, which do not speak of good examples. So if I'm incorrect on that note, then I apologise.

So? As I said, just because it's a problem everywhere doesn't mean it's not worth discussing solely in the context of videogames. And either way, you don't think that we should be trying to reduce the number of clichés and stereotypes in our media? Why would you not want more "masterpieces"?

I would love every piece of entertainment to be a 10/10 in everyone's book, but when you have soo many people joining the industry making their art, you can't expect everyone to be on the level of James Cameron or Hideki Kamiya.
When I bring up "But it happens everywhere", it's not me trying to dismiss the issue, or to make light of the situation, I just want to point out that the issue is widespread and not so easy to fix. Different people come into the industry for different reasons with their different agendas, yes, some people want to make the best thing they can, but you do have those that are just in it for the money, and other such petty reasons. Yes, you can raise awareness so that the developers who do care will be more careful, but that's not gonna get rid of the problem.
By pointing out the problem is everyone, I just want to get across that this poison has reached deep, I did not intend to make your point moot, I am sorry.

You're missing the point. People are talking about bad female characters in videogames. To come out and say "We should talk about the good female characters instead" is being dismissive.

I don't view it as being dismissive, I view it as making people remember that we should be having fun with our videogames, and to spread the joy of the games that pleased us. I find dwelling on the bad to be unhealthy, unless it's being played for laughs.

Also, unrelated, but I have a personal issue that bad games like Ride to Hell and Sonic 06 get talked about and continue to be relevant years after they're made, but good games like Sonic Advance and Lunar Legend just get played and forgotten just cause there was nothing to bitch about.

And I still don't understand why you think sexism isn't a problem in the videogame industry.

When I say "It's a non-issue", it stems from a couple of things.
The fact that the issue is widespread for starters, it's not a videogame specific thing, so like, it's not a "videogame issue" it's an "entertainment issue".

Secondly, I've grown up with "strong" female leads, and avoided the crap(to the best of my abilities), from Final Fantasy 4 to Tales of Xillia, the many fighting games I've played right down to small games like Liberation Maiden. So as far as I'm aware, there are plenty of good female characters from good writers to go in conjuction with the bad female characters from bad writers. So when I see this "sexism in video games" being brought up, I just think it's a bunch of people whining, and as I mentioned before, I don't see these "femenists" brining up good examples to counteract all their bitching, which, admittedly, has made me grow to think light of the issue..

But the bottom line is, I play video games to have fun. I play video games for gameplay. Unless it's an RPG, a well written story is just a plus, not what I'm looking for, especially if I'm allowed to skip cutscenes.
If I'm no longer enjoying what I'm playing, I quit, as I did between the months of July till last month.

When I said "it's a non-issue", I guess the more appropriate thing to say was "I don't care".
Except about real women in the industry getting harassed, cause I care about that. The last case I heard was that red-head getting harassed sexually by that bearded guy on Cross-Counter(A fighting game event), and then the asshole had the nerve to say "It's apart of the culture", fuck him, I hope he gets his cock chopped off.

seems like you're just scared to lose

What?

[shadowDOESrock]

You think that a publisher pressured a developer to make a sexist game? Or that the writers just felt comfortable writing sexist characters? Uhh...yeah, maybe in extreme cases like Duke Nukem but I doubt that's happening most of the time. Most likely the writers just don't know that they're being sexist. That's why people are raising awareness so that developers will know better in the future.

Wait wait wait wait

That's less an direct issue of sexism, and more of an issue of a bad writer. That's like telling Ehren Kruger he's being sexist.

That's just immature writing from a not very good writer, that still lets his inner teen out, because 'look at this, dude, isn't this awesome?'.

Recently we had Last of Us, Remember Me, BioShock Infinite, Tomb Raider, Resident Evil 6 (before the DLCs anyway) and Revelations 2 comes with two female protags even - and, hell, even Halo 4. (Although many will disagree with me on that one) introduced many, many female spartans. And despite Cortana ultimately being nude, she wasn't sexualised. (Yes, those do not equal each other, in my opinion).

I do realise that this is an issue, but as big as people make it out to be. Obviously something like Hitman: Absolution is going to have the obligatory nude scene and save da gurl scenes.

Also, a gripe I have with this - and all other conversations about this topic - misogyny means hatred and/or distrust of women. The word is nowdays used as if it were a synonym for sexist, which it is not.

Games like Grand Theft Auto and Assassin's Creed don't need to solely target males. It would help if there were more female game designers working on these games.

Also also: I think we're being unfair to Assassin's Creed just for Unity.
This franchise had a game with a black, female protagonist not too long ago.

Also also also: Grand Theft Auto is satire of these issues and not inherently sexist.

And finally, I do not think the way it's being pushed right now is the right way. This will only end like Hollywood in the 90s, were we get the obligatory black guy sidekick in a main role. Because you'd be racist otherwise. (By the way, Hollywood is not getting under flak for not having enough 'multicutural, ethical casts'.)

[Elija2]

I would love every piece of entertainment to be a 10/10 in everyone's book, but when you have soo many people joining the industry making their art, you can't expect everyone to be on the level of James Cameron or Hideki Kamiya.
When I bring up "But it happens everywhere", it's not me trying to dismiss the issue, or to make light of the situation, I just want to point out that the issue is widespread and not so easy to fix. Different people come into the industry for different reasons with their different agendas, yes, some people want to make the best thing they can, but you do have those that are just in it for the money, and other such petty reasons. Yes, you can raise awareness so that the developers who do care will be more careful, but that's not gonna get rid of the problem.
By pointing out the problem is everyone, I just want to get across that this poison has reached deep, I did not intend to make your point moot, I am sorry.

Not being sexist isn't something that every developer should strive to be but may never reach, it's something that should be a baseline requirement when making a game. It's not like it costs money or is hard to exclude sexist tropes. Yes, the poison has reached deep, but it's not something that's hard to get out.

I don't view it as being dismissive, I view it as making people remember that we should be having fun with our videogames, and to spread the joy of the games that pleased us. I find dwelling on the bad to be unhealthy, unless it's being played for laughs.

Sometimes you have to dwell on the bad if you want things to improve.

When I said "it's a non-issue", I guess the more appropriate thing to say was "I don't care".

That's a terribly selfish viewpoint to have. You think we should just ignore all of these problems because they don't affect you?

What?

I may have fallen asleep on my keyboard.

Wait wait wait wait

That's less an direct issue of sexism, and more of an issue of a bad writer. That's like telling Ehren Kruger he's being sexist.

That's just immature writing from a not very good writer, that still lets his inner teen out, because 'look at this, dude, isn't this awesome?'.

Well, their writing is bad because it's sexist. And I don't think that someone is a bad writer just because they don't know how to write good female characters. It's possible that they excel at certain forms of writing and not others. But if you're gonna be writing female characters, maybe you should know how to write good ones.

I do realise that this is an issue, but as big as people make it out to be. Obviously something like Hitman: Absolution is going to have the obligatory nude scene and save da gurl scenes.

Also, a gripe I have with this - and all other conversations about this topic - misogyny means hatred and/or distrust of women. The word is nowdays used as if it were a synonym for sexist, which it is not.

I think you'd be surprised at how widespread sexism is in videogames. And why does a game like Hitman need a nude scene?

And yeah, misogyny probably isn't the proper word to use in this discussion.

[shadowDOESrock]

Well, their writing is bad because it's sexist. And I don't think that someone is a bad writer just because they don't know how to write good female characters. It's possible that they excel at certain forms of writing and not others. But if you're gonna be writing female characters, maybe you should know how to write good ones.

Hmm, I have to disagree. Aside from things like Duke Nukem, I think these female characters are mostly a result of a bad writer. A good writer would write good characters and scenarios, without ever resorting to the typical tropes that sexualise women or anything.

Either that or the publisher is telling them to have a strip club or sexy scene, because that sells according to the numbers. There have been games that werent greentlit because games with fem-protagonists don't sell too well.

And why does a game like Hitman need a nude scene?

Just by the type of story it is. It's like James Bond.

[Hakudamashi]

Not being sexist isn't something that every developer should strive to be but may never reach, it's something that should be a baseline requirement when making a game.

Cool, so how about you get somebody to right it in the official law of writing a videogame story? Cause you can't.
It's like, freedom of speech, you can't just get up and tell someone not to write something cause it displeases you, unless you're the one funding the project.
Y'know who is funding it? Publishers, and the people that are into it and buy it in stores and Steam and wherever.

Sometimes you have to dwell on the bad if you want things to improve.

You can also improve things by spreading the knowledge of all the good that exist, convince people to prefer it over the alternative.
Forcing it will only result in rebellion.

That's a terribly selfish viewpoint to have. You think we should just ignore all of these problems because they don't affect you?

I'm ignoring it because I don't care. And I don't care because I have many games that aren't sexist, and more on my want list that I've yet to get.
Women being in abusive relationships, and pets being run over on the streets don't affect me, but I sure as hell don't ignore those issues.

Well, their writing is bad because it's sexist. And I don't think that someone is a bad writer just because they don't know how to write good female characters. It's possible that they excel at certain forms of writing and not others. But if you're gonna be writing female characters, maybe you should know how to write good ones.

Or they just want their game to have more bewbs.

And bad writing is bad writing if they do nothing with the sexist story.

And why does a game like Hitman need a nude scene?

pfft, why wouldn't it have a nude scene?

[Elija2]

Cool, so how about you get somebody to right it in the official law of writing a videogame story? Cause you can't.
It's like, freedom of speech, you can't just get up and tell someone not to write something cause it displeases you, unless you're the one funding the project.
Y'know who is funding it? Publishers, and the people that are into it and buy it in stores and Steam and wherever.

No, obviously we can't force someone to change their game even if the change would be an improvement, but then that person isn't really interested in making the best game that they can, are they?

And again, why would publishers or consumers be mad at a developer for making a game with strong female characters?

You can also improve things by spreading the knowledge of all the good that exist, convince people to prefer it over the alternative.
Forcing it will only result in rebellion.

How many alternatives are there to games like Assassin's Creed? That is, how many open-world stealth/parkour games set in different time periods that don't use sexist tropes are there? Because finding one is definitely a much better solution than just telling developers what is bad in their games.

Seriously, what problem do you have with people talking about sexism in videogames? You keep saying that we shouldn't force a discussion because it will start a rebellion. Well, I guess you're right because there already is a rebellion. People are sending death threats to people speaking out about these issues in gaming, so I guess people should just stop talking about them? What will that accomplish?

I'm ignoring it because I don't care. And I don't care because I have many games that aren't sexist, and more on my want list that I've yet to get.

So again, you don't care because it doesn't affect you.

[Hakudamashi]

No, obviously we can't force someone to change their game even if the change would be an improvement, but then that person isn't really interested in making the best game that they can, are they?

It would be an improvement to you. And it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't care about the game.
Maybe he/she has a really fun game mechanic, but because reasons he/she's gotta put in a story n' shit, so they just write about what's on their mind.
I mean, last time I checked, you don't need some masters in story telling to make a video game.

And again, why would publishers or consumers be mad at a developer for making a game with strong female characters?

Publishers? Cause they don't sell.
Consumers? Many reasons, possibly for the same reasons they don't wanna play a video game with a black man.

How many alternatives are there to games like Assassin's Creed? That is, how many open-world stealth/parkour games set in different time periods that don't use sexist tropes are there?

Or you can play and appreciate that Assassin's Creed? There are many games that don't even make it out of the drawing board or cancelled. One would say you're lucky Assassin's Creed is still persisting to suit ur taste, while others are still waiting for their Beyond Good and Evil, or Psychonaughts, or Captain Commando, or Turok.
But to answer your question, excluding the time travel part, there's inFamous, Sly Cooper, Spiderman 2, off the top of my head.

Because finding one is definitely a much better solution than just telling developers what is bad in their games.

I'd say it is.

Seriously, what problem do you have with people talking about sexism in videogames?

In addition to what I've said before, I also don't see it as sexism in video games, I just see bad writing and good writing.
If I may, I think calling out sexism is masking the real issue of developers and publishers that don't care about their work, as long as they get their money. And that is caused by several factors out of our control, and has caused more issues that just sexism.

You keep saying that we shouldn't force a discussion because it will start a rebellion. Well, I guess you're right because there already is a rebellion. People are sending death threats to people speaking out about these issues in gaming, so I guess people should just stop talking about them? What will that accomplish?

Well, one thing you can try is make sure non-sexist games outsell the sexist ones, that'll get the publishers' attention.
Secondly, as I'm sure I've said before, praise harder the games that do it right(not pretentiously), and convince more and more people to also want those kinds of games.
Teach the children the Dos and Do nots, cause they're gonna be the next game devolpers, so if you get them to appreciate non-sexist games, then they're grow up to make them.
Get more women(that care) involved. Men write about man things, women will write about women things.
This is not something you can fix overnight by just raising awareness, this, just like most other issues of prejudice, will take generations to fix.

Simply blurting out "we're against sexism" is just gonna cause backlash, like the anti-gay movement.
There's a right and wrong way to go about everything.

So again, you don't care because it doesn't affect you.

Sure Elija, it doesn't affect me, that is the reason why I don't care.
Like how I don't care about my relative with cancer, or my brother struggling with work, or my parents getting old, or the Xbone doing bad in Japan, or Notch leaving Mojang.
Eeyup, they don't affect me, therefore I shouldn't care, and thus, I don't.
how the fuck can you say that to me?

[Elija2]

It would be an improvement to you. And it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't care about the game.
Maybe he/she has a really fun game mechanic, but because reasons he/she's gotta put in a story n' shit, so they just write about what's on their mind.
I mean, last time I checked, you don't need some masters in story telling to make a video game.

How is leaving out sexist tropes not objectively an improvement?

And would that person still write their story if they knew that it was sexist? Unless they're fine with being sexist, I doubt it. Which is why people are raising awareness about sexism in videogames. If a developer knows that something in their game is sexist, they won't put it in their game.

Publishers? Cause they don't sell.
Consumers? Many reasons, possibly for the same reasons they don't wanna play a video game with a black man.

But what about games with male lead protagonists? Will people not buy those games because there's a strong female NPC?

Or you can play and appreciate that Assassin's Creed? There are many games that don't even make it out of the drawing board or cancelled. One would say you're lucky Assassin's Creed is still persisting to suit ur taste, while others are still waiting for their Beyond Good and Evil, or Psychonaughts, or Captain Commando, or Turok.

Okay, but people can enjoy games while also being critical of them. And I have no idea why you're bringing up that other stuff. People can't be critical of Assassin's Creed because at least it exists?

In addition to what I've said before, I also don't see it as sexism in video games, I just see bad writing and good writing.
If I may, I think calling out sexism is masking the real issue of developers and publishers that don't care about their work, as long as they get their money. And that is caused by several factors out of our control, and has caused more issues that just sexism.

It's bad writing because it's sexist. That's the point.

How is talking about sexism in games masking any other issues?

Well, one thing you can try is make sure non-sexist games outsell the sexist ones, that'll get the publishers' attention.
Secondly, as I'm sure I've said before, praise harder the games that do it right(not pretentiously), and convince more and more people to also want those kinds of games.
Teach the children the Dos and Do nots, cause they're gonna be the next game devolpers, so if you get them to appreciate non-sexist games, then they're grow up to make them.
Get more women(that care) involved. Men write about man things, women will write about women things.
This is not something you can fix overnight by just raising awareness, this, just like most other issues of prejudice, will take generations to fix.

Simply blurting out "we're against sexism" is just gonna cause backlash, like the anti-gay movement.
There's a right and wrong way to go about everything.

Having a game without tropes doesn't sell copies. Better sales isn't the reason developers should avoid sexist tropes; it's to avoid making people uncomfortable and to make a better game.

People do praise games that do it right. As I said, the Feminist Frequency videos point out examples of games without sexist tropes. Gaming journalists have also written articles praising games with strong female characters like The Last of Us and Gone Home.

Getting more women interested in game development isn't easy, and I've already gone over the amount of harassment they're victims to. Besides, you don't need a woman on the team to avoid sexist tropes.

Nobody is just blurting out "we're against sexism", because obviously everybody should be against sexism. People are specifically pointing out examples of sexism in games so that developers know what is wrong. You're saying that we shouldn't do that because it'll cause a backlash, so instead we should do all this other ridiculous crap (ensure that sexist games don't sell, teach kids not to be sexist, get more women interested in an industry that treats them poorly). We gotta do all this other shit just so that we don't upset the poor little sexist assholes on the internet. How is that even remotely fair?

Sure Elija, it doesn't affect me, that is the reason why I don't care.
Like how I don't care about my relative with cancer, or my brother struggling with work, or my parents getting old, or the Xbone doing bad in Japan, or Notch leaving Mojang.
Eeyup, they don't affect me, therefore I shouldn't care, and thus, I don't.
how the fuck can you say that to me?

You literally said that you don't care because you play other games that aren't sexist. You gave me no other reason. What was I supposed to think?

[Hakudamashi]

K so.
What I'm getting at is that there are people who still believe "Get back in the kitchen". You may not like them, but they're still human beings with rights.
There's stuff for them, and there's stuff for us. That's the magic of the worldwide market, there's something for everyone.


If your mission is to get developers who give a shit to know what they did wrong, then that's cool.

[Elija2]

K so.
What I'm getting at is that there are people who still believe "Get back in the kitchen". You may not like them, but they're still human beings with rights.
There's stuff for them, and there's stuff for us. That's the magic of the worldwide market, there's something for everyone.


If your mission is to get developers who give a shit to know what they did wrong, then that's cool.

Wait, was your whole problem with this just that you don't want sexy anime babes to go away?

[Hakudamashi]

Wait, was your whole problem with this just that you don't want sexy anime babes to go away?

Wha-

K so.
What I'm getting at is that there are people who still believe "Get back in the kitchen". You may not like them, but they're still human beings with rights.
There's stuff for them, and there's stuff for us. That's the magic of the worldwide market, there's something for everyone.


If your mission is to get developers who give a shit to know what they did wrong, then that's cool.

How th-

Sure, whatever you say man.

Imeanit'snotlikeIhavehentaiforthatoranything.

[Elija2]

You said that developers should be able to make sexist games if they want to, but sexism is a terrible thing. Why would you be okay with that unless there were games that you enjoy for their sexist tropes?

[Hakudamashi]

Because writers, developers, just like any other artist, should be free to tell the stories they want to tell.

Creative freedom.

[Elija2]

Because writers, developers, just like any other artist, should be free to tell the stories they want to tell.

Creative freedom.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that what they're doing is okay and people have the right to criticize them.

[Hakudamashi]

Well of course you have the right to critique, that's what freedom of speech is about(I think).

[Elija2]

So do you still think sexism in videogames is a non-issue?

[Hakudamashi]

I still don't care if that's what you're asking.

[Elija2]

So again, you don't care because you only play "non-sexist" games (aka it doesn't affect you).

[Hakudamashi]

Sure man.

I'll continue to do just that.

[SmashFinale]

Only thing is know is that the world record setting video usually do cater to women. Like Pac-Man and Mario Kart. There can be more games that cater to them but the stigma of gaming make women shy away from it. And as long as women only want to play casual games sexism is going to continue to run rampant unless some journalist wants to make a cash grab article. (like with DoA Xtreme)

We have some aware of the issue but it isnt nearly enough because those games don't sell well enough to garner attention from the general public.

[Hakudamashi]

Only thing is know is that the world record setting video usually do cater to women. Like Pac-Man and Mario Kart.

Pac Man and Mario Kart cater to everyone tho.

[shadowDOESrock]

So, uh, when does something become inherently sexist?


As in, I dont consider the Nurses in Silent Hill nor Cortana to be sexist, but I do consider Quiet sexist.

[Elija2]

So, uh, when does something become inherently sexist?


As in, I dont consider the Nurses in Silent Hill nor Cortana to be sexist, but I do consider Quiet sexist.

Well if a game uses sexist tropes then it's probably sexist, even if the creators didn't intend for it to be. That's why we should be discouraging the use of these tropes.

I don't know much about Silent Hill, Halo, or MGS5 so I couldn't tell you what makes them sexist or not sexist.

[shadowDOESrock]

Well if a game uses sexist tropes then it's probably sexist, even if the creators didn't intend for it to be. That's why we should be discouraging the use of these tropes.

I don't know much about Silent Hill, Halo, or MGS5 so I couldn't tell you what makes them sexist or not sexist.

... I starting to think that there's just a major lack of knowledge about games - the same issue I have with Sarkeesian, who isn't even a gamer.

Before you mentioned something akin to 'What alternatives do we have to Assassin's Creed', which I already found weird since

a)


and b)



I think the majority of people who complain about this issue just look at the surface and call it a day. It's like saying Hollywood movies suck, based on watching what's the most popular. Basically 'Outsiders' (Casuals) who just... dont know about the all the things in said medium.

This is probably why for me (and a lot of others) this is a not very big issue - We have access to all kinds of games.

[Elija2]

Assassin's Creed Liberation is a good example, but it's a spin-off game that nobody cares about because it's mediocre.
Remember Me plays nothing like Assassin's Creed, and from what I heard is also a pretty mediocre game.

People are pointing out correct examples of sexist tropes that are common in videogames and telling developers to stop using them. How is that "looking at the surface and calling it a day"? Nobody is saying that every videogame is sexist.

It's okay if you play and enjoy games that use sexist tropes, but it's still something that's worth talking about so that we can minimize their use.

[shadowDOESrock]

Assassin's Creed Liberation is a good example, but it's a spin-off game that nobody cares about because it's mediocre.
Remember Me plays nothing like Assassin's Creed, and from what I heard is also a pretty mediocre game.

People are pointing out correct examples of sexist tropes that are common in videogames and telling developers to stop using them. How is that "looking at the surface and calling it a day"? Nobody is saying that every videogame is sexist.

It's okay if you play and enjoy games that use sexist tropes, but it's still something that's worth talking about so that we can minimize their use.

If I'd really want something, I'd be looking for it - and in this case I'd find it.

This like complaining about Micheal Bay's latest blockbuster having his female characters be nothing but eyecandy.

People just want more Blockbuster games with strong females, not just normal games having good female protagonists - Despite there technically being many, many already.

It's exactly just like looking at the surface. Looking at what's popular, and using that as base for this whole thing.
Wind did have a point: No one ever mentions all those games that do feature a great female protag.

Remember Me plays really similar to AC, just in a linear fashion. But it's medicore, based on IGN's latest review, isn't it?

Men are also always walking mass of ripped pretty boys, isn't that sexualisation too? Why aren't we doing anything against that just as much?

I also spoke to a bunch of guys at GT who do not buy games feautering female protags. Their reason?
Videogames are escapism. As long the core audience is almost strictly male, this again adds to the point that isn't too big of a deal.

Also, for me personally, I dont have any issue with this because I got dozens of games where I can be a good female character at my fingertip.

[Elija2]

If I'd really want something, I'd be looking for it - and in this case I'd find it.

You're saying that instead of trying to improve what we have, we should just look for something else? That's stupid.

This like complaining about Micheal Bay's latest blockbuster having his female characters be nothing but eyecandy.

Uhh...yes, it is.

People just want more Blockbuster games with strong females, not just normal games having good female protagonists - Despite there technically being many, many already.

I think you're underestimating the number of games that use sexist tropes. I'm sure many of the games that you enjoy use sexist tropes but you don't notice them because you don't understand why they're sexist.

It's exactly just like looking at the surface. Looking at what's popular, and using that as base for this whole thing.
Wind did have a point: No one ever mentions all those games that do feature a great female protag.

As I said, the Feminist Frequency videos point out good examples of games that avoid sexist tropes. But you're right, nobody ever mentions good female characters.

Men are also always walking mass of ripped pretty boys, isn't that sexualisation too? Why aren't we doing anything against that just as much?

Being sexy doesn't mean you're being sexualized.

I also spoke to a bunch of guys at GT who do not buy games feautering female protags. Their reason?
Videogames are escapism. As long the core audience is almost strictly male, this again adds to the point that isn't too big of a deal.

Games don't need to have female protagonists to not be sexist.

Also, for me personally, I dont have any issue with this because I got dozens of games where I can be a good female character at my fingertip.

So you're like Haku, you don't care because it doesn't affect you. I guess a little empathy is too much to ask from you guys.

[Hakudamashi]

Empathise with what exactly?

Like, it's entertainment, for people to enjoy, and different people enjoy different things. If you don't like one game, you can move on to another.

It's not like real sexism where one can't simply find another job if they're harassed. Where there's no easy way out, no immediate alternative, to quick place to turn to.

[Elija2]

Like, it's entertainment, for people to enjoy, and different people enjoy different things. If you don't like one game, you can move on to another.

Are you seriously defending sexism in videogames by saying that people don't have to play sexist games?

[Hakudamashi]

If I'm defending anything, it's creative freedom.
As a developer, he/she should be free to make whatever they choose, and as a consumer, you're free to pick, choose and refuse what to indulge in.

[Elija2]

Creative freedom is a bad excuse for objectifying women.

[shadowDOESrock]

Creative freedom is a bad excuse for objectifying women.

But it is one that counts. The same way I'm allowed to make incredibly racist statements.

You're saying that instead of trying to improve what we have, we should just look for something else? That's stupid.

Improve what? There's dozens, and dozens of games out there with good, non-objectified, even playable, female protagonists out there. You're just not playing them. There's an alternative to everything.

Again with the Transformers example: Just watch Pacific Rim.

That's what I do. I am living in ecstasy.

Keep complaining about the latest Assassins Creed lacking a female co-op player, while I enjoy


Besides, why not join game development it's such a major issue? You certainly could shake things up with a good indie game. But that'd require effort, wouldn't it. It's exactly like those young people complaining about politics, instead of joining politics themselves.

[Elija2]

Improve what?

The games that objectify women? The thing we've been talking about this whole time?

There's dozens, and dozens of games out there with good, non-objectified, even playable, female protagonists out there. You're just not playing them. There's an alternative to everything.

I guess I can never complain about anything being bad ever again because there are always alternatives.

Besides, why not join game development it's such a major issue? You certainly could shake things up with a good indie game. But that'd require effort, wouldn't it. It's exactly like those young people complaining about politics, instead of joining politics themselves.

Yes, learning game development and making my own game is much easier than telling people that already make games not to be sexist.

[shadowDOESrock]

I guess I can never complain about anything being bad ever again because there are always alternatives.

Ever thought about you not being the target audience?

[Elija2]

Ever thought about you not being the target audience?

Who is the target audience of sexism?

[shadowDOESrock]

Who is the target audience of sexism?

People who enjoy perverted humour (Lollipop Chainsaw) or are simply in for escapeism? Like I mentined before?

[Elija2]

People who enjoy perverted humour (Lollipop Chainsaw) or are simply in for escapeism? Like I mentined before?

You can do escapism without being sexist.

[TheRealSonic]

Hmm I think Feminist go too far
they can say "HEY , DONT TALK ABOUT WOMEN" but then that take everything very VERY seriously

[Elija2]

InternetAristocrat is a dummy.

[Hakudamashi]

Anita is a cunt

See how easy that was?

[Elija2]

Fine, I'll go into a bit more detail.

Internet Aristocrat constantly makes videos with false or intentionally misleading information designed to target and harass people he doesn't like. This video is yet another example which I shall now point out:

He criticizes Anita for not being a gamer, as if that somehow invalidates any of her criticism. She even says in the video that IA cites that she would love to play more videogames but she is not a fan of the majority of games out there that feature brutal violence. I think it's fair to assume that she does like some videogames, she just isn't someone who could be considered a gamer. Obviously if she didn't care about videogames at all she wouldn't have started her Tropes series.

He accuses Anita of scamming people out of $150,000, even though she only asked for $6,000 and they were all voluntary donations. Nothing in her Kickstarter was misleading, either.

He points out Anita's use of uncredited game footage in her videos, which is a fair criticism but it doesn't mean that she scammed people and it certainly doesn't change what her videos are about. Either way, she's stopped using other people's game footage in her more recent videos.

He says that political commentary doesn't belong in videogames, but why? Games are a media, they are an art form. They're absolutely open to this kind of criticism.

He says that anyone who defends Anita is a white knight, because apparently the only reason a man would defend a woman is if he thinks he'll get something out of it.

He says that people like Anita are destroying gaming which is such an insane conspiracy theory that I refuse to take anything he says seriously.

[Hakudamashi]

Better.

[shadowDOESrock]

He criticizes Anita for not being a gamer, as if that somehow invalidates any of her criticism. She even says in the video that IA cites that she would love to play more videogames but she is not a fan of the majority of games out there that feature brutal violence. I think it's fair to assume that she does like some videogames, she just isn't someone who could be considered a gamer. Obviously if she didn't care about videogames at all she wouldn't have started her Tropes series.

I'm sorry, but this right here invalidates almost anything she says.

It is an Outsider trying to change someone elses thing.

And that also applies to almost anything in the real world.
And just like in the real world, an extreme reaction results in a extreme reaction.

[Elija2]

I'm sorry, but this right here invalidates almost anything she says.

It is an Outsider trying to change someone elses thing.

And that also applies to almost anything in the real world.
And just like in the real world, an extreme reaction results in a extreme reaction.

She's not an outsider when it comes to sexism, and that's the thing that she's criticizing. That's like saying that a scientist can't criticize the scientific accuracy of a movie because they're not in the film industry.

[shadowDOESrock]

She's not an outsider when it comes to sexism.

But to gaming.
Infact, isn't there even a video where she says she doesn't like and knows nothing about games, and that she had to research games first?

hat's like saying that a scientist can't criticize the scientific accuracy of a movie because they're not in the film industry.

No. No it's not.

It's more akin to someone trying to radically change the film industry, even though they're neither in it nor watch motion pictures.

[Elija2]

Infact, isn't there even a video where she says she doesn't like and knows nothing about games, and that she had to research games first?

I already addressed this:

She even says in the video that IA cites that she would love to play more videogames but she is not a fan of the majority of games out there that feature brutal violence. I think it's fair to assume that she does like some videogames, she just isn't someone who could be considered a gamer. Obviously if she didn't care about videogames at all she wouldn't have started her Tropes series.

Again, why does it matter whether she is a gamer or not? It doesn't invalidate any of her criticisms.

It's more akin to someone trying to radically change the film industry, even though they're neither in it nor watch motion pictures.

You really think that Anita doesn't play videogames at all?

And somehow trying to change the industry to make it less sexist is a bad thing?

[Hakudamashi]

And somehow trying to change the industry to make it less sexist is a bad thing?

This is me, mentioning creative freedom.

[Elija2]

This is me, mentioning creative freedom.

Anita isn't forcing anyone to do anything.

[Hakudamashi]

I do however, disagree with her.

[Elija2]

I do however, disagree with her.

What exactly do you disagree with?

[Hakudamashi]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong cause I haven't seen the video in forever.

But I remember disagreeing with her views on Peach and Zelda, and the Damsel in distress troupe as a whole.
And I remember something about that she essentially describes a "good" female character as a man with tits, which, just no.

[Elija2]

But I remember disagreeing with her views on Peach and Zelda, and the Damsel in distress troupe as a whole.

You don't agree that Peach and Zelda almost always being helpless damsels in distress is sexist?

And I remember something about that she essentially describes a "good" female character as a man with tits, which, just no.

That's literally the opposite of what she thinks.

[Hakudamashi]

You don't agree that Peach and Zelda almost always being helpless damsels in distress is sexist?

No
It's not sexist if Peach can't fight back against a fire breathing spiked turtle monster, Peach just can't fight against a fire breathing spiked turtle monster.
I never took that as sexist against women, I always took it as Bowser's army>Peach's army, if anything, the Toads oughta step up their game, cause Mario does all the work.

And it's not sexist against women if Ganondorf is stronger than Zelda, Ganondorf is just stronger than Zelda, Triforce of Power mofo.

And they're not even helpless, there are more than one games where Peach gives you items to help you while she's locked up, and Zelda has them light arrows that rek Ganon's shit once you free her.

Not to mention they're both authority figures whose very presence brings peace and calm to their kingdoms, regardless of what their actual duties are. Authority figures are normally targeted for kidnapping if nothing else than to cause distress among the people.

She's talking about the Minnie Mouse effect

I'm talking about when she described a "good" female character as strong and rough and tough and don't need nobody.

[jkid101094]

Don't humor the brainwashed, Wind. You won't change their opinions.

[shadowDOESrock]

Don't humor the brainwashed, Wind. You won't change their opinions.

[Hakudamashi]

Good thing I'm not here to change his opinion then.

[Elija2]

It's not sexist if Peach can't fight back against a fire breathing spiked turtle monster, Peach just can't fight against a fire breathing spiked turtle monster.
I never took that as sexist against women, I always took it as Bowser's army>Peach's army, if anything, the Toads oughta step up their game, cause Mario does all the work.

After 13 mainline Mario games where Peach is kidnapped, you'd think she'd learn to stick up for herself.

And Peach totally can fight against big strong monsters. She does so twice in both Super Mario Bros 2 and Super Mario 3D World.

And it's not sexist against women if Ganondorf is stronger than Zelda, Ganondorf is just stronger than Zelda, Triforce of Power mofo.

It's not that Zelda is weaker than Ganon, it's that time and time again she's made weak and helpless when she can clearly be a stronger character (Sheik, Tetra).

And they're not even helpless, there are more than one games where Peach gives you items to help you while she's locked up, and Zelda has them light arrows that rek Ganon's shit once you free her.

So they're able to help the hero but they can never help themselves, even when they're the ones being kidnapped? Of course, only the male hero can save them. That's not sexist.

Not to mention they're both authority figures whose very presence brings peace and calm to their kingdoms, regardless of what their actual duties are. Authority figures are normally targeted for kidnapping if nothing else than to cause distress among the people.

What kind of authority figure is Peach? She's a princess, sure, but what does that entail? In the games all she ever does is get kidnapped. We never see what she does for her kingdom. She has no character, she's treated as nothing but an object that must be rescued.

Zelda is a bit better in that regard, but that doesn't change the fact that she is made helpless in every game she appears in at least once, often throughout the majority of the game. Being a vague authority figure doesn't automatically make them a strong character.

I'm talking about when she described a "good" female character as strong and rough and tough and don't need nobody.

When did she say that?

Don't humor the brainwashed, Wind. You won't change their opinions.

I'm going to ignore you because you obviously have nothing good to say.

[shadowDOESrock]

Okay Okay
Okay

Now, listen, you people should stop using Mario and Zelda as examples.
They're based on the classic knight saves princess from dragon/black knight fairy tales.

[Elija2]

Now, listen, you people should stop using Mario and Zelda as examples.
They're based on the classic knight saves princess from dragon/black knight fairy tales.

They're modern video games. They don't need to use classic stereotypes.

[shadowDOESrock]

They're modern video games. They don't need to use classic stereotypes.

But they are. It's in their veins.
They themselves are classics now. And that tale is part of their legacy.

Use modern videogames as example. Unless, again, they're clearly paying homage to that, like Shovel Knight.

[Elija2]

But they are. It's in their veins.
They themselves are classics now. And that tale is part of their legacy.

Sexist tropes are in their veins? That's not a good look, and it certainly doesn't excuse their use.

[jkid101094]

Elija confirmed for SJW.

[Elija2]

Elija confirmed for SJW.

And somehow that's a bad thing?

[jkid101094]

It further drives home the point that arguing with you is just a waste of time.

[Elija2]

It further drives home the point that arguing with you is just a waste of time.

Arguing? Since when have you been making arguments? All you've done is sling insults at me.

[jkid101094]

I haven't for the aforementioned reason.

No matter what I say you aren't going to listen and you're just going to keep grasping at straws and irrational opinions until I give up.

[Hakudamashi]

After 13 mainline Mario games where Peach is kidnapped, you'd think she'd learn to stick up for herself.

I'd more think she'd better train her Toads, what do those fucks even do?

And Peach totally can fight against big strong monsters. She does so twice in both Super Mario Bros 2 and Super Mario 3D World.

Super Mario Bros. 2 was a dream, and Mario 3D World is the latest one, you'll have an argument if she gets kidnapped again.
But, then again, Peach wasn't Bowser's objective this time, the Sprixies were(all female oh noes). And Peach fought back with Mario, Luigi, and some random Toad.

It's not that Zelda is weaker than Ganon, it's that time and time again she's made weak and helpless when she can clearly be a stronger character (Sheik, Tetra).

First of all, each Zelda is a different character, Sheik and Tetra were Zeldas raised in dire times, every other Zelda was raised in times of peace.
Secondly, she's not weak, when she's not a skilled magician, or shooting light arrows, she's very serious about her duty or ruling her kingdom, strength is not only how well you fight in battle.

So they're able to help the hero but they can never help themselves, even when they're the ones being kidnapped? Of course, only the male hero can save them. That's not sexist.

They're KIDNAPPED, by big, scary, monstrocities, it's not like they got slapped on the wrist and told to stay in their room. They are guarded, and often times kept captive in a place where even if they escape, they'd have nowhere to go. So they at least find ways to help out the person who CAN do something about it.
And what's wrong if the hero is a male?
Link is chosen by the goddess, he bears the Triforce of Courage and wields the blade of evil's bane, despite all the Hylians of the land, only he can stop Ganon. What does his gender matter? Him being a man does not negate his accomplishments
And Mario, other than being the only one in the Kingdom that isn't a lazy fuck, he always risk life and limb and rise to every obstacle to rescue this person that clearly means alot. Does that mean nothing just cause he's a man?

Their cases are not sexist, if you swap the genders around nothing would change.

What kind of authority figure is Peach? She's a princess, sure, but what does that entail? In the games all she ever does is get kidnapped. We never see what she does for her kingdom. She has no character, she's treated as nothing but an object that must be rescued.

If you mean the mainline games, then they barely have story in the first place. You're just given a reason to play the game, and what better reason than to "Save your woman"? I know if my girlfriend were kidnapped I would spring to action no matter what. It's just a cheap plot for the game to take place, nothing to think hard about.

In the RPGs however, we all know that Peach is a very pleasant and caring person that all her citizens adore and her very presence makes them calm.
If you wanna be a cynic and go with the angle "So she's just a trophy?", then be my guest, all I know is that she loves her citizens, and they love her, that's all I need to know.

Zelda is a bit better in that regard, but that doesn't change the fact that she is made helpless in every game she appears in at least once, often throughout the majority of the game. Being a vague authority figure doesn't automatically make them a strong character.

Being able to swing a sword doesn't make you a strong character either.

When did she say that?

I dun know, I just said I haven't seen her vid in ages :U

[Elija2]

I haven't for the aforementioned reason.

No matter what I say you aren't going to listen and you're just going to keep grasping at straws and irrational opinions until I give up.

What the hell are you talking about? I've been listening to what Haku and Kyo are saying because even though we disagree they're at least coming up with counter-arguments. Literally all you've done in this thread is shit on me without even once attempting to attack my points. You accused me of being brainwashed just because I'm defending Anita, but somehow I'm the irrational one? Or are you the one grasping at straws because you don't have an actual counter-argument?

[jkid101094]

What the hell are you talking about? I've been listening to what Haku and Kyo are saying because even though we disagree they're at least coming up with counter-arguments. Literally all you've done in this thread is shit on me without even once attempting to attack my points. You accused me of being brainwashed just because I'm defending Anita, but somehow I'm the irrational one? Or are you the one grasping at straws because you don't have an actual counter-argument?

If you identify with SJWs then I automatically disrespect you. It's like going up to a black guy and telling him you're a member of the KKK. No one involved wants that shit.

Everyone bitches a fit when Mario has to save Peach but when Shantae has to go out and rescue her useless ass grandfather from a female villain no one bats an eyelash. This isn't a problem because it's wrong, it's a problem because people make it one.

They're modern video games. They don't need to use classic stereotypes.

Why does this even matter at all to anyone? Mario and Zelda have a classic, "Save the princess!" storyline, but what exactly about that ticks people off? That it's demeaning to women? Should we remove the Goombas as well because it demeans their race to be the easiest enemy in the game? I could make the same argument in reverse and say that it demeans men that Mario has to go risking his life to save a princess with no compensation. The man plows through eight worlds at minimum, defeats hordes of monsters and all he gets in return is a kiss in a cake? If this were real life Mario would have two mansions and half a kingdom to his name by now. It demeans men to depict them slaving away day in and day out for no reward while Peach gets to chill out between two castles every adventure and wait.

"But wait, jkid! What we find offensive is that Peach is powerless and..."

So what you're saying is that if the roles were reversed you'd be fine with it? Why didn't I think of that!? Equality at it's finest!

Oh, but you want Mario to save a man, right? How about Luigi? No, that's offensive to little brothers. Toad? No, that depicts hard-working salary men as weak and helpless.

How about we just accept that the person who is weak and powerless just happens to be a woman? There are many more features of her that make her desirable than the fact that she's a girl. She's royalty. She's rich. She has land Bowser probably wants. She has a super genius, a one man army, thousands of soldiers and an entire kingdom at her disposal that only needs her word to get working. But nah, if we focused on any of those facts we'd have nothing to bitch about.

But oh no! Bowser is confirmed to be in love with the princess! That makes her a sexual object!

News flash, guys. I was yankin' my wank to Peach long before I play Super Paper Mario. I can't help that she's damn near perfect.

So I guess what I'm getting at, for a recap, is that I don't see what your problem is. You say it's sexist but...is it really? There are plenty of hard working women in the mushroom kingdom: Rosalina, Todette, Wendy, Vivian, Gombella, Daisy (on occasion), Birdo, ect. How can you call a series sexist because one portion of it portrays a helpless woman? If Peach was a man and Mario and Bowser were women would you still call it sexist? I think not.

[Hakudamashi]

Birdo's a girl?

[jkid101094]

Yes, according to modern day Nintendo.

[Hakudamashi]

I am actually dissapoint.

[Elija2]

Super Mario Bros. 2 was a dream, and Mario 3D World is the latest one, you'll have an argument if she gets kidnapped again.

My argument is that Peach can fend for herself. 3D World proves this.

First of all, each Zelda is a different character, Sheik and Tetra were Zeldas raised in dire times, every other Zelda was raised in times of peace.
Secondly, she's not weak, when she's not a skilled magician, or shooting light arrows, she's very serious about her duty or ruling her kingdom, strength is not only how well you fight in battle.

Yes, every Zelda is different, so then why do they all have to be helpless damsels?

No, she's not weak, but then why is she getting kidnapped in almost every game? What's the point of her being this supposedly awesome character when she spends the majority of the game helplessly locked away?

They're KIDNAPPED, by big, scary, monstrocities, it's not like they got slapped on the wrist and told to stay in their room. They are guarded, and often times kept captive in a place where even if they escape, they'd have nowhere to go. So they at least find ways to help out the person who CAN do something about it.

So the princess is heavily guarded at all times (because that just makes sense), but the front door to the big scary monster's lair is just left open so that any hero can come wandering in to save the princess. How convenient to make it so that the princess is forced to be completely helpless while the hero has the only means to save the day.

If you mean the mainline games, then they barely have story in the first place. You're just given a reason to play the game, and what better reason than to "Save your woman"? I know if my girlfriend were kidnapped I would spring to action no matter what. It's just a cheap plot for the game to take place, nothing to think hard about.

Yes, it's cheap and sexist.

Being able to swing a sword doesn't make you a strong character either.

No but your reason for not being able to swing a sword should be better than "I need to be helpless so that somebody else can save me."

If you identify with SJWs then I automatically disrespect you. It's like going up to a black guy and telling him you're a member of the KKK. No one involved wants that shit.

Are you fucking serious? You're comparing me to a group that preaches hate when I've been doing the exact opposite? I've been calling for less sexism in games and somehow that makes me a bad guy? How demented are you?

Why does this even matter at all to anyone? Mario and Zelda have a classic, "Save the princess!" storyline, but what exactly about that ticks people off? That it's demeaning to women? Should we remove the Goombas as well because it demeans their race to be the easiest enemy in the game? I could make the same argument in reverse and say that it demeans men that Mario has to go risking his life to save a princess with no compensation. The man plows through eight worlds at minimum, defeats hordes of monsters and all he gets in return is a kiss in a cake? If this were real life Mario would have two mansions and half a kingdom to his name by now. It demeans men to depict them slaving away day in and day out for no reward while Peach gets to chill out between two castles every adventure and wait.

Yeah, I'm sure being the capable hero and going on fun adventures must really suck for Mario. Who would want to be him?

"But wait, jkid! What we find offensive is that Peach is powerless and..."

So what you're saying is that if the roles were reversed you'd be fine with it? Why didn't I think of that!? Equality at it's finest!

Oh, but you want Mario to save a man, right? How about Luigi? No, that's offensive to little brothers. Toad? No, that depicts hard-working salary men as weak and helpless.

Well for one it wouldn't be reinforcing an over-used stereotype. It wouldn't be as big of a deal if the roles were reversed because a male damsel in distress isn't a widely-used stereotype. If anything, people would see it as a joke. "Haha, I get it, it's the man getting kidnapped this time."

How about we just accept that the person who is weak and powerless just happens to be a woman? There are many more features of her that make her desirable than the fact that she's a girl. She's royalty. She's rich. She has land Bowser probably wants. She has a super genius, a one man army, thousands of soldiers and an entire kingdom at her disposal that only needs her word to get working. But nah, if we focused on any of those facts we'd have nothing to bitch about.

When the person who is weak and powerless "just happens to be a woman" 99% of the time, then we have a problem. Peach having her own kingdom doesn't change anything. If anything it just makes her more of a generic princess.

But oh no! Bowser is confirmed to be in love with the princess! That makes her a sexual object!

News flash, guys. I was yankin' my wank to Peach long before I play Super Paper Mario. I can't help that she's damn near perfect.

I'm not even gonna comment on this.

So I guess what I'm getting at, for a recap, is that I don't see what your problem is. You say it's sexist but...is it really? There are plenty of hard working women in the mushroom kingdom: Rosalina, Todette, Wendy, Vivian, Gombella, Daisy (on occasion), Birdo, ect. How can you call a series sexist because one portion of it portrays a helpless woman? If Peach was a man and Mario and Bowser were women would you still call it sexist? I think not.

Did I say that the Mario franchise is sexist? No, I'm saying that it uses many sexist tropes. The problem is that by constantly reusing these tropes, they're reinforcing and normalizing these sexist views towards women.

[Hakudamashi]

My argument is that Peach can fend for herself. 3D World proves this.

Alot of good being able to fend for yourself will do once the baddie takes the initiative to kidnap you. Remove you from the equation, n' stuff.

Yes, every Zelda is different, so then why do they all have to be helpless damsels?

They aren't just "helpless damsels", fucking, Ganon, Vaati, Ghrirahim, Yuga, either overwhelm their army or use cunning tricks to subdue them. It is not a matter of "oh, the woman was captured", a fucking madman is trying to rule the world. And in Zelda games, except Skyward Sword, Link's quest is to save Hyrule, and all the people, from the great evil.
Do you want me to apologise that Link just so happens to be a man?

No, she's not weak, but then why is she getting kidnapped in almost every game? What's the point of her being this supposedly awesome character when she spends the majority of the game helplessly locked away?

I put more emphasis on the Villain. By having Zelda being a good ruler, it better sets up the villain who devised a plan, or had the power to overthrow her and take over her kingdom, and as to why the prophesied hero is needed to defeat him.
In other words. I don't see Zelda being "helpless", I see Zelda villains are serious business.

So the princess is heavily guarded at all times (because that just makes sense), but the front door to the big scary monster's lair is just left open so that any hero can come wandering in to save the princess. How convenient to make it so that the princess is forced to be completely helpless while the hero has the only means to save the day.

In the case of Mario, it's not "convenient", that's just who Mario is. He gets off his ass, and journeys across all manners of evil just to get to the castle, the castle to which Bowser lets him in, cause his ego is soo goddamn large that he always believes "this time will be the time I end you."
Also, did you forget that in 3D Land, Bowser taunted Mario by sending him pictures of him torturing Peach while she's captive? Yeah, he even let her out of her cage just to have her chased down by his minions. Bowser, despite the jovial tone of the Mario franchise, isn't someone can just fuck with, he's kind of a dick.
In the case of Zelda. In almost all cases, she's straight up under petrification, anyone is fucked under that circumstance. And secondly, the door is NEVER just "left open", Link's gotta go through hell and back just to get the goddamn door open, and even then, he has one last trial to go through.

Yes, it's cheap and sexist.

It's not sexist, how is that sexist? Please explain sexist to me.
I fail to see how wanting to save a woman is sexist. Should I leave her to die? Should I never help a female out? Should I always just leave a woman to fend for herself? I don't understand.

No but your reason for not being able to swing a sword should be better than "I need to be helpless so that somebody else can save me."

Her reason for not swinging as sword is cause she wasn't trained to swing a sword, that's what the soldiers are for 

Yeah, I'm sure being the capable hero and going on fun adventures must really suck for Mario. Who would want to be him?

I wouldn't...

[Elija2]

Alot of good being able to fend for yourself will do once the baddie takes the initiative to kidnap you. Remove you from the equation, n' stuff.

Yeah, because it's impossible to escape when you've got incompetent fools like Bowser keeping you. Peach has no problem going through 8 worlds of danger in 3D World, but she can't help herself when she's trapped by Bowser.

And yet every time the male hero is captured there's always a method of escape that you go through. You never wait for someone to come get you, you're always able to save yourself.

They aren't just "helpless damsels", fucking, Ganon, Vaati, Ghrirahim, Yuga, either overwhelm their army or use cunning tricks to subdue them. It is not a matter of "oh, the woman was captured", a fucking madman is trying to rule the world. And in Zelda games, except Skyward Sword, Link's quest is to save Hyrule, and all the people, from the great evil.
Do you want me to apologise that Link just so happens to be a man?

Link's reason for saving the world doesn't always have to be "because the princess was captured." Why must that always be his goal? Yeah, I know why, Zelda contains a piece of the Triforce and Ganon has to kidnap her to get to it. But because of this, the same stereotypical story gets repeated every game. Would it kill them to be a bit more original?

I put more emphasis on the Villain. By having Zelda being a good ruler, it better sets up the villain who devised a plan, or had the power to overthrow her and take over her kingdom, and as to why the prophesied hero is needed to defeat him.
In other words. I don't see Zelda being "helpless", I see Zelda villains are serious business.

And Zelda isn't also serious business? She's the one who rules her own kingdom and shit.

In the case of Mario, it's not "convenient", that's just who Mario is. He gets off his ass, and journeys across all manners of evil just to get to the castle, the castle to which Bowser lets him in, cause his ego is soo goddamn large that he always believes "this time will be the time I end you."
Also, did you forget that in 3D Land, Bowser taunted Mario by sending him pictures of him torturing Peach while she's captive? Yeah, he even let her out of her cage just to have her chased down by his minions. Bowser, despite the jovial tone of the Mario franchise, isn't someone can just fuck with, he's kind of a dick.
In the case of Zelda. In almost all cases, she's straight up under petrification, anyone is fucked under that circumstance. And secondly, the door is NEVER just "left open", Link's gotta go through hell and back just to get the goddamn door open, and even then, he has one last trial to go through.

It is convenient. We're led to believe that Bowser keeps Peach super-secure so that she can't escape but that Mario is able to just waltz in. Bowser having a big ego is a dumb excuse. If that were the case then he would have likely let Peach roam free as well. And while being let out of her cage in 3D Land Peach didn't even attempt to escape?

Zelda being put under petrification is another dumb excuse. If it's so easy to capture people through petrification, why wouldn't Ganon also capture Link this way? That would be the logical thing to do. But no, of course the game is written so that Zelda is captured with no means of escaping while Link is free to go after her.

I fail to see how wanting to save a woman is sexist. Should I leave her to die? Should I never help a female out? Should I always just leave a woman to fend for herself? I don't understand.

It's not that you're saving a woman, it's that the woman is always incapable of saving herself and she is ultimately just used as a lazy plot device. It never needs to be a woman that's stolen, it could just as easily be some object like Shine Sprites or Lumas.

Her reason for not swinging as sword is cause she wasn't trained to swing a sword, that's what the soldiers are for 

Well her soldiers aren't exactly doing a very good job of protecting her, are they?

[Hakudamashi]

Yeah, because it's impossible to escape when you've got incompetent fools like Bowser keeping you. Peach has no problem going through 8 worlds of danger in 3D World, but she can't help herself when she's trapped by Bowser.

I don't like how ur undermining the implications of being "trapped".

And yet every time the male hero is captured there's always a method of escape that you go through. You never wait for someone to come get you, you're always able to save yourself.

That is a negative sir, it depends on the writer and the context. Captured men can, and have been just as helpless when they're kidnapped by a villain of serious business.

Link's reason for saving the world doesn't always have to be "because the princess was captured." Why must that always be his goal? Yeah, I know why, Zelda contains a piece of the Triforce and Ganon has to kidnap her to get to it. But because of this, the same stereotypical story gets repeated every game. Would it kill them to be a bit more original?

I always find a plea for originality in a long running franchise to be asinine. Care to explain why you can't play a different game?

And Zelda isn't also serious business? She's the one who rules her own kingdom and shit.

So what? people of serious business cannot be outsmarted? Overwhelmed? Bested? Ganondorf beat her, he had the better plan, was better equipped, was more cunning. Gender, has nothing to do with it.

It is convenient. We're led to believe that Bowser keeps Peach super-secure so that she can't escape but that Mario is able to just waltz in. Bowser having a big ego is a dumb excuse. If that were the case then he would have likely let Peach roam free as well. And while being let out of her cage in 3D Land Peach didn't even attempt to escape?

Ego is a valid excuse, it's Bowser's character, which has been consistent. He has a big ego, and is arrogant, and he always believes he'll beat Mario, so he lets him in, but in some cases, the door doesn't open till he collects some power stars or something for the days Bowser just doesn't feel like fighting I guess.
And she did try to escape obviously, but she got caught again, cause the castle is locked up, hovering above lava. And I doubt she could find a 1-up somewhere amidst fleeing for her life so that she could try jumping out a window.

Zelda being put under petrification is another dumb excuse. If it's so easy to capture people through petrification, why wouldn't Ganon also capture Link this way? That would be the logical thing to do. But no, of course the game is written so that Zelda is captured with no means of escaping while Link is free to go after her.

Did you stop to consider maybe such a powerful magic can't be done whenever he wants? Maybe he made the conscious decision to go for Zelda because, gee, I dunno, he found her first? Zelda's the princess, ain't hard to find, who the fuck is Link? Just some random ass kid, how would he even go about looking for him? Then you have games, where the villain WOULD have killed Link on the spot, but Link gets saved by someone else.

It's not that you're saving a woman, it's that the woman is always incapable of saving herself and she is ultimately just used as a lazy plot device. It never needs to be a woman that's stolen, it could just as easily be some object like Shine Sprites or Lumas.

That sir, is a matter of preference, and where "creative freedom" kicks in.

Well her soldiers aren't exactly doing a very good job of protecting her, are they?

That is a job for the Captain of the guard. Tell him to train properly for The Great King of Evil during a time of peace where the greatest sparring partners they have are wildlife and each other 

[Elija2]

I don't like how ur undermining the implications of being "trapped".

It's a Mario game.

That is a negative sir, it depends on the writer and the context. Captured men can, and have been just as helpless when they're kidnapped by a villain of serious business.

Care to share some examples? Because it's certainly not as common as when women are the ones captured.

I always find a plea for originality in a long running franchise to be asinine. Care to explain why you can't play a different game?

Really? Asking for originality in unfair now (especially when the plot changes every game anyway)? I suppose you'd be fine then if Zelda followed the same basic dungeon formula with the same exact items and same areas for each and every game?

So what? people of serious business cannot be outsmarted? Overwhelmed? Bested? Ganondorf beat her, he had the better plan, was better equipped, was more cunning. Gender, has nothing to do with it.

You don't think gender has something to do with it when "damsel in distress" is a super-common stereotype in storytelling?

Ego is a valid excuse, it's Bowser's character, which has been consistent. He has a big ego, and is arrogant, and he always believes he'll beat Mario, so he lets him in, but in some cases, the door doesn't open till he collects some power stars or something for the days Bowser just doesn't feel like fighting I guess.
And she did try to escape obviously, but she got caught again, cause the castle is locked up, hovering above lava. And I doubt she could find a 1-up somewhere amidst fleeing for her life so that she could try jumping out a window.

She can float though, jumping out of a window would be totally fine.

Did you stop to consider maybe such a powerful magic can't be done whenever he wants? Maybe he made the conscious decision to go for Zelda because, gee, I dunno, he found her first? Zelda's the princess, ain't hard to find, who the fuck is Link? Just some random ass kid, how would he even go about looking for him? Then you have games, where the villain WOULD have killed Link on the spot, but Link gets saved by someone else.

Link is the hero of Hyrule, I think Ganon would have heard of him.

That sir, is a matter of preference, and where "creative freedom" kicks in.

What do you mean it's a matter of preference? If the princess is going to be used as nothing more than a reward at the end of the game, why wouldn't it be better to just replace her with an object? If her kidnapping was used as something more than just a lazy motivation for the hero then I would be fine with it, but if it isn't then you're just perpetuating a lazy stereotype.

And I don't know why you keep bringing up creative freedom. I'm not infringing on anyone's creative freedom by criticizing their game.

[Hakudamashi]

It's a Mario game.

Doesn't make the concept of being "trapped" any less dire.

Care to share some examples? Because it's certainly not as common as when women are the ones captured.

I'll get back to you on that cause I'm tired.

Really? Asking for originality in unfair now (especially when the plot changes every game anyway)? I suppose you'd be fine then if Zelda followed the same basic dungeon formula with the same exact items and same areas for each and every game?

If that's what the fans are into. I'm a believer of "If it ain't broke don't fix it". If there's gonna be change in the formula, it ought to be when the developer wants to try something new.

You don't think gender has something to do with it when "damsel in distress" is a super-common stereotype in storytelling?

No, I don't.

She can float though, jumping out of a window would be totally fine.

She can't float indefinitely, and there is lava, right outside.
If Mario with a Tanooki suit makes it with close calls, I doubt Peach would press her luck.

Link is the hero of Hyrule, I think Ganon would have heard of him.

Each Link is a different character, and the legacy of all the past Links are only past down as legend, with his only trademarks being that he wears green and holds the master sword
Many people wear green in the Zelda universe, and in some cases, Link doesn't even wear green in the beginning. He's just a simple village kid, he doesn't even "earn" the Triforce of Courage till he pasts some tests, so Ganon can't even look for that either.

What do you mean it's a matter of preference? If the princess is going to be used as nothing more than a reward at the end of the game, why wouldn't it be better to just replace her with an object? If her kidnapping was used as something more than just a lazy motivation for the hero then I would be fine with it, but if it isn't then you're just perpetuating a lazy stereotype.

I'd prefer to get a woman at the end of my adventure so I can proceed to write a fanfic about their happily ever after. I can't have a happily ever after with an object, but some people will like those cause they're shiny and holds value like a medal. 'Tis a preference, what would you rather fight for?

And I don't know why you keep bringing up creative freedom. I'm not infringing on anyone's creative freedom by criticizing their game.

I brought it up cause you insisted on replacing women with objects.
Well what if the developer wanted it to be a woman? That's his/her choice.

[Elija2]

No, I don't.

Well then I think you're a little bit naive. Stereotypes affect everything we do whether we're aware of them or not. It's pretty obvious that Zelda was written to be a damsel in distress which is exclusively a female stereotype.

I brought it up cause you insisted on replacing women with objects.
Well what if the developer wanted it to be a woman? That's his/her choice.

If that's their choice then they should have a good reason for the woman getting kidnapped other than just so that the hero can rescue her. In Mario, Peach is nothing but an object to be rescued. All she does is sit and let herself be captured, and then she sits and waits for her rescue. She never does anything meaningful throughout the entire game. She could just as easily be replaced with a made-up object and the game would be no different, and that's sad because it means that she's no better than a made-up object.

[Hakudamashi]

Well then I think you're a little bit naive. Stereotypes affect everything we do whether we're aware of them or not. It's pretty obvious that Zelda was written to be a damsel in distress which is exclusively a female stereotype.

For me, the seterotype itself is not my concern, I only harp on it if they start and stop at that and do nothing else with it. And even then, it's not a big deal to me if the game itself is fun.

If that's their choice then they should have a good reason for the woman getting kidnapped other than just so that the hero can rescue her. In Mario, Peach is nothing but an object to be rescued. All she does is sit and let herself be captured, and then she sits and waits for her rescue. She never does anything meaningful throughout the entire game. She could just as easily be replaced with a made-up object and the game would be no different, and that's sad because it means that she's no better than a made-up object.

I think that's unnecessarily harsh. The mainline Mario games aren't up for grand story, they instead go for characterisation in subtle movements, which is enough for most people. Mario and Bowser can't interact with an object like they can with Peach, simply calling her an object is uncalled for.

And then we're given the Mario spin-offs where they put more effort into their characterisations, you can't characterise an object.

And to your earlier request, I remembered 4 examples.
Super Mario Bros. 3
The 7 kings get turned into animals by the Koopa Kids, they were completely helpless till Mario came to save them. Tey were soo helpless, the Koopas didn't even bother to raid their castles...

God of War
There is a puzzle, where a man is trapped in a cage, helpless, and he can't get out.  You then have to push this helpless man up a hill and into an incinerator to get the door to open, despite all his pleas and cries for you to spare him.

The Hobbit part 2
All the dwarves, who were all men were captured by the Elf people. They were completely helpless and at the mercy of that one female elf who was watching over them. They had to just sit there till that Hobbit guy had to come and rescue them.

One Piece
Fire Fist Ace, after getting beaten into submission and captured by Blackbeard, was completely helpless and had to accept his death at the hand of the marines. Then his little brother Luffy went to try to rescue him, to no avail because he died anyway.

Now that I think about it, there are a lot of movies and stuff vague in my mind where whenever the man gets captured, more often than not they get tortured to death, is there a trope for that?

[Chimmy Chonga]

Remember when Anita Sarkeesian lied about contacting the police? Ohohoh and remember that time she lied about receiving death threats then asked for donations? That was funi.

[Hakudamashi]

I don't follow Anita, so no.

[Elija2]

For me, the seterotype itself is not my concern, I only harp on it if they start and stop at that and do nothing else with it. And even then, it's not a big deal to me if the game itself is fun.

That's what I'm saying though, they never do anything else with Peach and they rarely do anything else with Zelda.

I think that's unnecessarily harsh. The mainline Mario games aren't up for grand story, they instead go for characterisation in subtle movements, which is enough for most people. Mario and Bowser can't interact with an object like they can with Peach, simply calling her an object is uncalled for.

What kind of interactions do Mario and Bowser have with Peach? Mario looks in horror as Peach is getting kidnapped. Bowser laughs and says that Peach is all his. Mario saves the day and rescues Peach. Replace "Peach" with "the magical space rock" and it would still fit. Oh wait, Mario gets a kiss on the cheek at the end. Great.

Now that I think about it, there are a lot of movies and stuff vague in my mind where whenever the man gets captured, more often than not they get tortured to death, is there a trope for that?

I don't think that's a very common trope but even if it is the man usually gets more characterization than a woman would in the same situation.

Remember when Anita Sarkeesian lied about contacting the police? Ohohoh and remember that time she lied about receiving death threats then asked for donations? That was funi.

No I don't but please continue making shit up if it makes you feel better.

[Hakudamashi]

That's what I'm saying though, they never do anything else with Peach and they rarely do anything else with Zelda.

Why should they? Really?
They're game characters with their roles as you play through the game. If you wanna switch them up, why stop there? Why not also make Ganondorf your sideikick in one game? Or Toad be a hard boiled cop that doesn't play by the rules? Or the Kokiri form a family band? Or Luigi overthrow the mushroom kingdom?

Because that's what spin-offs are for, and they do that, when they're ready and comfortable, and /want/ to do it.
You're just gonna ignore Peach in Super Paper Mario and Mario RPG? You gonna ignore Zelda in Hyrule Warriors? You gonna ignore the both of them in Super Smash Bros.?

What kind of interactions do Mario and Bowser have with Peach? Mario looks in horror as Peach is getting kidnapped. Bowser laughs and says that Peach is all his. Mario saves the day and rescues Peach. Replace "Peach" with "the magical space rock" and it would still fit. Oh wait, Mario gets a kiss on the cheek at the end. Great.

Mario went on a vacation with her, hot air balloon ride, she bakes him cake, he shows up to her parties, they hold hands, fly gently into the sunset, and even sat in a tree together and took pictures.
Doing that with a rock would be very creepy and very sad.

I don't think that's a very common trope but even if it is the man usually gets more characterization than a woman would in the same situation.

Oh it is just as common I bet, Military movies and games do it all the time. And no, their characterization isn't any better
"I'm the tough guy who ain't gonna talk no matter what, and was apparently best friends with the main character I knew for 5 minutes"
And what about all those Old Kings that have to get saved in JRPGs?
"Save me cause I'm the king" who's personality is either a jolly Santa, or an abusive dick.

[Maddiekinns]

Whoa do you guys mind if I say a few words? I started reading though this and I'm shocked. Not upset, really, just shocked. I HOPE I am on the same page as you all, if not, just ignore me lmao.

The damsel in distress thing is just for story, always keep that in mind. It's a video game, not real life. I could see where someone would be upset if they took that damsel in distress idealism and applied it to real life situations; I would be upset too if someone thought I couldn't fight for myself and they had to fight for me. However I wouldn't straight out consider it sexist.
As for the Anita thing, yeah she hates video games so she decides to run her mouth about it without knowing too much about the subject. That's a given, when someone doesn't like something, they'll express that. We do it here all the time, and I'm not going to count myself out from that. Boy if I hate something I'll go on and on about it forever.

That's my two cents, I hope it wasn't rude and I apologize if it was. 

[Chimmy Chonga]

No I don't but please continue making shit up if it makes you feel better.

Yes, because I totally made it up.

[jkid101094]

If Elija and Anita had babies would they automatically be upgraded to Social Justice Paladins or would they have to grind on single fathers first?

[shadowDOESrock]

No I don't but please continue making shit up if it makes you feel better.

[Hakudamashi]

inb4corruptpolice.

[Elija2]

Why should they? Really?
They're game characters with their roles as you play through the game. If you wanna switch them up, why stop there? Why not also make Ganondorf your sideikick in one game? Or Toad be a hard boiled cop that doesn't play by the rules? Or the Kokiri form a family band? Or Luigi overthrow the mushroom kingdom?

Their role is to constantly be the damsel in distress, which is a sexist trope.

Because that's what spin-offs are for, and they do that, when they're ready and comfortable, and /want/ to do it.
You're just gonna ignore Peach in Super Paper Mario and Mario RPG? You gonna ignore Zelda in Hyrule Warriors? You gonna ignore the both of them in Super Smash Bros.?

I'm not ignoring the spinoffs, but that's not what we're talking about. Everyone is usually equal in the spinoffs, but why do they get shafted in the main games?

Mario went on a vacation with her, hot air balloon ride, she bakes him cake, he shows up to her parties, they hold hands, fly gently into the sunset, and even sat in a tree together and took pictures.
Doing that with a rock would be very creepy and very sad.

None of those interactions hinge on Peach being kidnapped. Her kidnapping literally serves no point other than to be the lazy motivation for Mario (which could be anything) and the reward at the end of the game (which could be anything).

Oh it is just as common I bet, Military movies and games do it all the time. And no, their characterization isn't any better
"I'm the tough guy who ain't gonna talk no matter what, and was apparently best friends with the main character I knew for 5 minutes"
And what about all those Old Kings that have to get saved in JRPGs?
"Save me cause I'm the king" who's personality is either a jolly Santa, or an abusive dick.

In military movies the men being kidnapped are portrayed as tough and brave, not weak and helpless.

The damsel in distress thing is just for story, always keep that in mind. It's a video game, not real life. I could see where someone would be upset if they took that damsel in distress idealism and applied it to real life situations; I would be upset too if someone thought I couldn't fight for myself and they had to fight for me. However I wouldn't straight out consider it sexist.

But that's the thing, videogames don't exist in a vacuum. These sexist beliefs are already common in the real world, and when media constantly uses these sexist tropes they're perpetuating these beliefs. Many people honestly do believe that women need to be protected by men. Why do you think men hitting a woman is stigmatized? Because it's a common belief that women are naturally weaker than men.

As for the Anita thing, yeah she hates video games so she decides to run her mouth about it without knowing too much about the subject. That's a given, when someone doesn't like something, they'll express that. We do it here all the time, and I'm not going to count myself out from that. Boy if I hate something I'll go on and on about it forever.

Why do you think she hates videogames? Because she's being critical of them? She even says in her videos that it's totally fine to like videogames that use sexist tropes. And yet there are people like Stachekip who think she's out to ruin videogames.

Yes, because I totally made it up.

Those excuses for that image being a fake death threat are hilarious. "Oh, she wasn't logged in!" So what? "No search was done!" She didn't have to search to find that person if they were directly tweeting at her. "That person created an account to only tweet at Anita!" Well yeah, what's strange about a crazy harasser doing that? "Oh, the person didn't make any spelling errors!" Come on. And that guy seriously thinks that wanting to bite Anita's neck and drink her blood isn't a threat because it's a "feminine vampire fantasy." Do you seriously believe this shit? Anita getting constant death threats is public knowledge.

That second article even says at the bottom that she did contact the police, but here's more proof for you. And Feminist Frequency is a 501(c)3 non-profit, donations are how her website survives.

Also, lol at sourcing Return of Kings. That's one of the most sexist sites I've ever seen. Look at this shit. No wonder they're trying to come up with any reason they can think of to hate Anita.

[Hakudamashi]

Their role is to constantly be the damsel in distress, which is a sexist trope.

Y'know what? I just fail to see what the problem is. A person is in peril, I go save them, gameplay ensues.

I'm not ignoring the spinoffs, but that's not what we're talking about. Everyone is usually equal in the spinoffs, but why do they get shafted in the main games?

Shafted? How are they shafted? They play an integral role, if nothing else than to get the game started. If anyone's "shafted" It's Luigi, always relugated to "the other one". In New Super Mario Bros. U, player 1 can't even select him or the Toads when playing by himself, cause they're not cool enough or something, why can't they beat Bowser and save the princess on their own? Nope, Mario's gotta do everything.

None of those interactions hinge on Peach being kidnapped. Her kidnapping literally serves no point other than to be the lazy motivation for Mario (which could be anything) and the reward at the end of the game (which could be anything).

Now you lost me.
Those interactions, if anything, signifies that Mario and Peach really care for each other, and thus, Mario ain't rescuing her cause he's some chivalrous knight bound by duty, he's rescuing her cause he really cares. He's the only one to spring to action to all her kidnappings consistently. His motivation is cause he cares, and those interactions show us he cares.
And even in any of the spin-offs, Mario only springs to action to save the day after Peach asks him to.

In military movies the men being kidnapped are portrayed as tough and brave, not weak and helpless.

Is that not just as much as sexist stereotype? They only know how to kill people and be vulgar, not good role models if you ask me.

But that's the thing, videogames don't exist in a vacuum. These sexist beliefs are already common in the real world, and when media constantly uses these sexist tropes they're perpetuating these beliefs. Many people honestly do believe that women need to be protected by men. Why do you think men hitting a woman is stigmatized?

And many women believe men don't have feelings, and are made to do their bidding. There are also women who believe men can't be sexually harassed nor raped, and that as long as they're pretty, they can get away with anything. 

Because it's a common belief that women are naturally weaker than men.

Dude, no, Biology states human females are naturally weaker than human males.
If you take a man, and a woman, put them under the same conditions, with the same motivation, same way of thinking, same training, same dedication, and had them wrestle, the man will overpower her on equal ground.

[Elija2]

Y'know what? I just fail to see what the problem is. A person is in peril, I go save them, gameplay ensues.

Because it's a trope used in 90% of videogames that normalizes sexist beliefs. Imagine if in 90% of videogames the bad guy was a poor black man who deals illegal drugs, mugs innocent people, and loves friend chicken. These are all negative black stereotypes, but would you say "What's the problem? The person is a bad guy, I go kill them, and gameplay ensues" or would you point out the racism?

Shafted? How are they shafted? They play an integral role, if nothing else than to get the game started. If anyone's "shafted" It's Luigi, always relugated to "the other one". In New Super Mario Bros. U, player 1 can't even select him or the Toads when playing by himself, cause they're not cool enough or something, why can't they beat Bowser and save the princess on their own? Nope, Mario's gotta do everything.

Their integral role is to get kidnapped and do nothing. In every game.

Now you lost me.
Those interactions, if anything, signifies that Mario and Peach really care for each other, and thus, Mario ain't rescuing her cause he's some chivalrous knight bound by duty, he's rescuing her cause he really cares. He's the only one to spring to action to all her kidnappings consistently. His motivation is cause he cares, and those interactions show us he cares.
And even in any of the spin-offs, Mario only springs to action to save the day after Peach asks him to.

Well yeah, obviously the game tells us about how much they love each other because that's their excuse for having Mario save Peach all the time. It's a dumb over-used excuse and what it boils down to is just another damsel in distress trope.

Is that not just as much as sexist stereotype? They only know how to kill people and be vulgar, not good role models if you ask me.

Killing people is a male power fantasy. People see dudes killing bad guys and they think "Wow, that dude is badass." No woman sees Peach being kidnapped and goes "Wow, what an awesome character."

And many women believe men don't have feelings, and are made to do their bidding. There are also women who believe men can't be sexually harassed nor raped, and that as long as they're pretty, they can get away with anything. 

Those stereotypes are mainly perpetuated by other men though. When men see other guys being emotional they say "Stop being such a pussy." and that creates a stigma that men can't have feelings. When men hear about other men being raped they go "Whatever, I bet he enjoyed it." and that creates a stigma that men can't be raped or that they enjoy being raped. Women rarely perpetuate these stereotypes.

Dude, no, Biology states human females are naturally weaker than human males.
If you take a man, and a woman, put them under the same conditions, with the same motivation, same way of thinking, same training, same dedication, and had them wrestle, the man will overpower her on equal ground.

That's not the point. Men think that you shouldn't hit a woman because they are weaker, but hitting a weaker man is okay. This is common because media constantly portrays women as helpless victims and men as their heroes.

[shadowDOESrock]

Because it's a trope used in 90% of videogames that normalizes sexist beliefs.

90%?
I hope you realise how dumb that actually was.

Women rarely perpetuate these stereotypes.

Someone clearly doesnt read the comment sections of tabloid media.

[Hakudamashi]

Because it's a trope used in 90% of videogames that normalizes sexist beliefs. Imagine if in 90% of videogames the bad guy was a poor black man who deals illegal drugs, mugs innocent people, and loves friend chicken. These are all negative black stereotypes, but would you say "What's the problem? The person is a bad guy, I go kill them, and gameplay ensues" or would you point out the racism?

I would do the former good sir.

Their integral role is to get kidnapped and do nothing. In every game.

'Cept they do, do something.

Well yeah, obviously the game tells us about how much they love each other because that's their excuse for having Mario save Peach all the time. It's a dumb over-used excuse and what it boils down to is just another damsel in distress trope.

There is nothing dumb about saving someone you love.

Killing people is a male power fantasy. People see dudes killing bad guys and they think "Wow, that dude is badass."

That is a sexist gender stereotype that all men are power junkies and I'm offended.

No woman sees Peach being kidnapped and goes "Wow, what an awesome character."

No, they see Peach with a castle, riches, and a loyal man always doing her bidding and then go "Wow, what an awesome character."

Those stereotypes are mainly perpetuated by other men though. When men see other guys being emotional they say "Stop being such a pussy." and that creates a stigma that men can't have feelings. When men hear about other men being raped they go "Whatever, I bet he enjoyed it." and that creates a stigma that men can't be raped or that they enjoy being raped. Women rarely perpetuate these stereotypes.

Sure
Cause the "damsel in distress" trope isn't perpetuated by women who always want a man to save them from their troubles, and the image that women must be pretty and materialistic aren't perpetuated by women who are pretty and materialistic...
And women totally don't perpetuate the thought that men should be emotionless and obedient...

That's not the point. Men think that you shouldn't hit a woman because they are weaker, but hitting a weaker man is okay. This is common because media constantly portrays women as helpless victims and men as their heroes.

That stigma came about because women are indeed weaker.
It is not common because of the media, it is common because that's how it's been throughout history, and the mindset has been carried over across generations.

[Elija2]

I would do the former good sir.

Seriously? You wouldn't even bat an eyelash at a blatantly racist stereotype being depicted in the majority of videogames?

'Cept they do, do something.

What do they do?

There is nothing dumb about saving someone you love.

I never said that, but using it as an excuse to overuse a sexist trope is dumb.

That is a sexist gender stereotype that all men are power junkies and I'm offended.

You're right, but men are conditioned to think that being a power-hungry killer is cool. It's almost as if constant portrayals of this in media has affected their way of thinking.

No, they see Peach with a castle, riches, and a loyal man always doing her bidding and then go "Wow, what an awesome character."

And then they see her being kidnapped in every game and they go "Oh, come on."

Sure
Cause the "damsel in distress" trope isn't perpetuated by women who always want a man to save them from their troubles, and the image that women must be pretty and materialistic aren't perpetuated by women who are pretty and materialistic...
And women totally don't perpetuate the thought that men should be emotionless and obedient...

I disagree about the damsel in distress trope being perpetuated by women. How many women do you think even write these stories?

And again, women have been conditioned to think that they must be beautiful. The media perpetuates this by only casting beautiful women in movies and TV shows. Women themselves do perpetuate this too and it's pretty sad.

Romance movies for women almost always show the man being emotional. As for obedient, I don't know what that's supposed to mean. It's not sexist to want your man to listen to you.

That stigma came about because women are indeed weaker.
It is not common because of the media, it is common because that's how it's been throughout history, and the mindset has been carried over across generations.

It's a terrible mindset and the media has only perpetuated it.

[Hakudamashi]

Seriously? You wouldn't even bat an eyelash at a blatantly racist stereotype being depicted in the majority of videogames?

No, I wouldn't, cause it's not important.

What do they do?

As I said before, Peach sends Mario items, and Zelda, well, depends on which Zelda you're talking about.

I never said that, but using it as an excuse to overuse a sexist trope is dumb.

So wanting to save someone you love is dumb? The act of saving someone you love is dumb? To use a story about saving someone you love is dumb?
Cause if that's not what you are saying, then you're implying that "I love her" is a dumb excuse to use the trope, and thus would be ok to use the trope for another reason, like just for sex.

You're right, but men are conditioned to think that being a power-hungry killer is cool. It's almost as if constant portrayals of this in media has affected their way of thinking.

No, that is a product of bad parenting. The ESRB ratings aren't there for show.

And then they see her being kidnapped in every game and they go "Oh, come on."

They see her get kidnapped and rescued every game and go "Mario's soo reliable".

I disagree about the damsel in distress trope being perpetuated by women. How many women do you think even write these stories?

Do you even fan fiction? And you're gonna tell me you don't know of novels written by women of some big hunk of man sweeping them off their feet and saving them from all their troubles? Y'know, essentially "Damsel in distress" from the woman's point of view.

And again, women have been conditioned to think that they must be beautiful.

I would also blame this more on bad parenting.

The media perpetuates this by only casting beautiful women in movies and TV shows.

Sure, has nothing to do with their acting talent, it's not like that requires training or anything. And you can totally just walk into an audition just cause you're pretty and nothing else.

Women themselves do perpetuate this too and it's pretty sad.

Yes, it is sad that bad people exist, but what'cha gonna do?

Romance movies for women almost always show the man being emotional. As for obedient, I don't know what that's supposed to mean. It's not sexist to want your man to listen to you.

Sure, it's totally not sexist when the man's gotta do everything and anything the woman demands, but god forbid the man objects to a decision she made, or wants to hang out with his bros.

It's a terrible mindset and the media has only perpetuated it.

It is not a terrible mindset, you shouldn't go about hitting women, or anyone.
I believe one must strive to resolve their conflicts without violence, it should only be used as a last resort.
Or when someone comes at you with a knife.

[Elija2]

No, I wouldn't, cause it's not important.

Yes it is. It normalizes racist depictions of black people, just like how sexist portrayals of women normalize sexist behaviour. Also, it's freaking racist.

As I said before, Peach sends Mario items, and Zelda, well, depends on which Zelda you're talking about.

I already explained this too. It's dumb that they're able to help the hero but not themselves, even when they're the ones being kidnapped. But now I feel like we're going in circles.

So wanting to save someone you love is dumb? The act of saving someone you love is dumb? To use a story about saving someone you love is dumb?
Cause if that's not what you are saying, then you're implying that "I love her" is a dumb excuse to use the trope, and thus would be ok to use the trope for another reason, like just for sex.

I'm saying that overuse of the trope is dumb, no matter the excuse.

No, that is a product of bad parenting. The ESRB ratings aren't there for show.

Oh come on, parents aren't responsible for everything their kid does. Besides, media influences people of all ages.

They see her get kidnapped and rescued every game and go "Mario's soo reliable".

Yes. Mario's the hero. Mario's the cool guy. Peach is just his reward.

Do you even fan fiction? And you're gonna tell me you don't know of novels written by women of some big hunk of man sweeping them off their feet and saving them from all their troubles? Y'know, essentially "Damsel in distress" from the woman's point of view.

In those stories the woman is usually the main character and she actually does things outside of being kidnapped. Even though she does get saved by a man, she's more than just his reward. In Mario and Zelda, Peach and Zelda are merely a tool to get Mario or Link's adventure going.

Sure, has nothing to do with their acting talent, it's not like that requires training or anything. And you can totally just walk into an audition just cause you're pretty and nothing else.

Oh, so all good actors just happen to be beautiful. If there aren't any below-average-looking women on a show it's because all of the ones that auditioned sucked.

Yes, it is sad that bad people exist, but what'cha gonna do?

Raise awareness and try to change things?

Sure, it's totally not sexist when the man's gotta do everything and anything the woman demands, but god forbid the man objects to a decision she made, or wants to hang out with his bros.

How is that sexist? If anything, it makes the woman look bad by portraying her as a nagging girlfriend.

[Chimmy Chonga]

Yes. Mario's the hero. Mario's the cool guy. Peach is just his reward.

It's
a
2D
platforming
game.

Nobody plays those for the story.

[Hakudamashi]

Yes it is. It normalizes racist depictions of black people, just like how sexist portrayals of women normalize sexist behaviour. Also, it's freaking racist.

Yeeeaaaahhh, no. All I see is a bad person who's a drug dealer, who just happens to be black and male, and I don't think the situation would improve or lessen if you changed his skin colour.
Racist? Nah, it'd be racist if they said he's a bad man because he's black.

I already explained this too. It's dumb that they're able to help the hero but not themselves, even when they're the ones being kidnapped. But now I feel like we're going in circles.

Can you ride a carrier pigeon?

I'm saying that overuse of the trope is dumb, no matter the excuse.

Sooooo, saving someone you love is dumb? The very concept of saving someone you love is dumb? Alot of people using the concept of saving someone you love because they find value in it or otherwise is dumb? To want to save someone you love is dumb?

Oh come on, parents aren't responsible for everything their kid does. Besides, media influences people of all ages.

A parent is responsible for their child.
A parent's duty is to protect them, teach them right from wrong, teach them their values, and help them better understand the world.
Yes, a parent cannot control everything that happens to them, but they can guide them to a way of thinking that when they are approached by circumstances that agree or disagree with their beliefs, they can make their own decision, and choose to do what they think is right, and if they're stumped, and can't make a decision on a circumstance, then the parent should be there to help them in whatever way they can.
There is a difference between the parent that explains porn to a child, the parent that says porn is bad, and the parent that says porn is great.

Yes. Mario's the hero. Mario's the cool guy. Peach is just his reward.

Peach is not the reward, she's the ruler, and Mario's gotta save her no matter what cause she owns him and everything. Mario is Peach's reward for being the royalty that rules all the things. Doesn't got to work a day in her life but everything's just given to her, and she has a man that will do everything she asks without question or fail.
Mario's not a cool guy, he's just a mindless drone that follows the bidding of his master.

In those stories the woman is usually the main character and she actually does things outside of being kidnapped. Even though she does get saved by a man, she's more than just his reward. In Mario and Zelda, Peach and Zelda are merely a tool to get Mario or Link's adventure going.

Well no shit, that's what "from their perspective" means, it doesn't magically change the fact that they're the "damsel in distress" that you hate soo much.
And guess what? In the spin-offs, things get told from Peach and Zelda's perspective at times, and y'know what else? They do stuff, shocking I know, perspective changes things.
So the main games are told from Mario and Link's perspectives, the main characters, that you play as, and follow, to play the game.

Oh, so all good actors just happen to be beautiful. If there aren't any below-average-looking women on a show it's because all of the ones that auditioned sucked.

Are you seriously gonna rule out that possibility?
Are you gonna rule out that maybe below average women looking women don't want to act?
Are you implying that a level of beauty is required for all acting careers?

Raise awareness and try to change things?

I'm sure I said this before somewhere, but if your goal is to raise awareness for the people that give a shit, then that's totally fine.

How is that sexist? If anything, it makes the woman look bad by portraying her as a nagging girlfriend.

It's sexist because it always portrays thee woman as being in the right.
A man having an opinion and standing up to his woman makes him a monster, a woman being a cunt is some kind of hero and someone to root for.

[Elija2]

It's
a
2D
platforming
game.

Nobody plays those for the story.

You're missing the point. Mario is only one of the many examples of games that use this trope.

Yeeeaaaahhh, no. All I see is a bad person who's a drug dealer, who just happens to be black and male, and I don't think the situation would improve or lessen if you changed his skin colour.
Racist? Nah, it'd be racist if they said he's a bad man because he's black.

So you wouldn't think it's racist unless the game explicitly told you "by the way, we're being racist"?

Can you ride a carrier pigeon?

It's Mario, why not?

Sooooo, saving someone you love is dumb? The very concept of saving someone you love is dumb? Alot of people using the concept of saving someone you love because they find value in it or otherwise is dumb? To want to save someone you love is dumb?

That's not what the trope is. The trope is having a woman be a damsel in distress at the expense of her own characterization.

A parent is responsible for their child.
A parent's duty is to protect them, teach them right from wrong, teach them their values, and help them better understand the world.
Yes, a parent cannot control everything that happens to them, but they can guide them to a way of thinking that when they are approached by circumstances that agree or disagree with their beliefs, they can make their own decision, and choose to do what they think is right, and if they're stumped, and can't make a decision on a circumstance, then the parent should be there to help them in whatever way they can.
There is a difference between the parent that explains porn to a child, the parent that says porn is bad, and the parent that says porn is great.

You're not a bad parent if you don't teach your kid not to like action heroes.

Peach is not the reward, she's the ruler, and Mario's gotta save her no matter what cause she owns him and everything. Mario is Peach's reward for being the royalty that rules all the things. Doesn't got to work a day in her life but everything's just given to her, and she has a man that will do everything she asks without question or fail.
Mario's not a cool guy, he's just a mindless drone that follows the bidding of his master.

All of those details about Peach aren't added for the sake of characterization, they're added specifically to make Mario's actions make sense. That's the problem. It doesn't matter if she's some great ruler because we never even see any of that.

Mario saves the princess through his own volition, he's not treated as her slave.

Well no shit, that's what "from their perspective" means, it doesn't magically change the fact that they're the "damsel in distress" that you hate soo much.
And guess what? In the spin-offs, things get told from Peach and Zelda's perspective at times, and y'know what else? They do stuff, shocking I know, perspective changes things.
So the main games are told from Mario and Link's perspectives, the main characters, that you play as, and follow, to play the game.

Games don't need to be from a certain character's perspective to give them good characterization. Novels do more than just show the girl getting saved and games can do that too.

Are you seriously gonna rule out that possibility?
Are you gonna rule out that maybe below average women looking women don't want to act?
Are you implying that a level of beauty is required for all acting careers?

Um, yes I'm totally ruling out that possibility. You're being naive if you think that less-attractive women not getting acting jobs is just a coincidence.

I'm sure I said this before somewhere, but if your goal is to raise awareness for the people that give a shit, then that's totally fine.

Then what the hell are you complaining about?

It's sexist because it always portrays thee woman as being in the right.
A man having an opinion and standing up to his woman makes him a monster, a woman being a cunt is some kind of hero and someone to root for.

A character being portrayed negatively doesn't make things sexist against them. It's only sexist if it's a common trope that is used exclusively with their gender. Many movies do the reverse where the man is demanding toward the woman.

[Hakudamashi]

So you wouldn't think it's racist unless the game explicitly told you "by the way, we're being racist"?

Basically
If the game doesn't draw attention to it, why should I?

It's Mario, why not?

I'm not talking about Mario, I'm asking you.

That's not what the trope is. The trope is having a woman be a damsel in distress at the expense of her own characterization.

... Peach and Zelda have characterization, so what's the problem again?

You're not a bad parent if you don't teach your kid not to like action heroes.

You are a bad parent if you don't watch it with them and answer whatever questions they have, and don't scold them appropriately when they try to act it out.
That "PG: Parental Guidance" rating isn't there for show.

All of those details about Peach aren't added for the sake of characterization, they're added specifically to make Mario's actions make sense. That's the problem. It doesn't matter if she's some great ruler because we never even see any of that.

Mario saves the princess through his own volition, he's not treated as her slave.

Yeah no, this section of this discussion is cause you said, I can only assume, what you hear women around you say about you, and I'm responding with what I hear women say about Peach. Some look down on her, some look up to her, both equally problematic if you ask me.

Games don't need to be from a certain character's perspective to give them good characterization. Novels do more than just show the girl getting saved and games can do that too.

And Mario and Zelda games do show them more than just getting saved, they have characterization...

Um, yes I'm totally ruling out that possibility. You're being naive if you think that less-attractive women not getting acting jobs is just a coincidence.

Then what the hell are you complaining about?

This started cause I said I disagreed with Anita on Peach on Zelda. I'm explaining my views and you're arguing against them.

A character being portrayed negatively doesn't make things sexist against them. It's only sexist if it's a common trope that is used exclusively with their gender. Many movies do the reverse where the man is demanding toward the woman.

In every romantic comedy I've seen with my family, for the past 15 years of my life, if a woman is being demanding toward the man, she's the one you're to be rooting for, the "hero", but when a man is being demanding toward the woman, he's the one you're to be rooting against, the "villain".

Are you telling me that's not often enough to be called a sexist trope?

[Elija2]

Basically
If the game doesn't draw attention to it, why should I?

How is using blatant stereotypes not drawing attention to it?

And obviously no game is gonna explicitly call out it's own racism/sexism.

I'm not talking about Mario, I'm asking you.

Um...no?

... Peach and Zelda have characterization, so what's the problem again?

Their characterizations only exist to contextualize the hero's actions, never their own lives. The few bits of characterization they have that don't do this are so superficial that they barely qualify as characterization (e.g. Peach likes baking cakes).

You are a bad parent if you don't watch it with them and answer whatever questions they have, and don't scold them appropriately when they try to act it out.
That "PG: Parental Guidance" rating isn't there for show.

This isn't about acting it out, it's about thinking it's cool. You're saying that people are bad parents if their kid thinks that someone who kills bad guys is cool.

Yeah no, this section of this discussion is cause you said, I can only assume, what you hear women around you say about you, and I'm responding with what I hear women say about Peach. Some look down on her, some look up to her, both equally problematic if you ask me.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

And Mario and Zelda games do show them more than just getting saved, they have characterization...

See above.

Queen Latifah isn't attractive?

Regardless, for every one less-attractive female celebrity you show me, I could show you 10 that are attractive. I can't believe you're even trying to argue this.

In every romantic comedy I've seen with my family, for the past 15 years of my life, if a woman is being demanding toward the man, she's the one you're to be rooting for, the "hero", but when a man is being demanding toward the woman, he's the one you're to be rooting against, the "villain".

Are you telling me that's not often enough to be called a sexist trope?

It's just as common for the woman to be seen as the bad guy in this situation, so no it's not sexist.

[Hakudamashi]

How is using blatant stereotypes not drawing attention to it?

And obviously no game is gonna explicitly call out it's own racism/sexism.

Simply using a black man as a drug dealer isn't calling attention to anything. If they go out of their way to point out that he's black, then that's when I have a problem, unless they're going somewhere with it.

Um...no?

Exactly
Cause a carrier pidgeon is used to carry messages, not people. A carrier pigeon can carry small items in and out fine, they're small, hard to notice, hard to catch, and pretty quick, but they can't carry a whole person, that's just not in their power.
If you make a carrier pigeon, with all these strengths, and can just as easily carry a whole person, that'd be a pretty powerful tool, soo powerful, why wouldn't everyone use it?
Why wouldn't everyone just use the carrier pigeons to just travel to where they wanted? Wouldn't that be really convenient? Why would anyone bother walking anywhere when you can just have this almighty bird just carry you everywhere?
Now imagine if something like that existed in a video game. Would that be exciting to watch? Or play?

This isn't about acting it out, it's about thinking it's cool. You're saying that people are bad parents if their kid thinks that someone who kills bad guys is cool.

Well thinking it's cool is harmless, it's especially harmless if he understands why it's entertainment.

Their characterizations only exist to contextualize the hero's actions, never their own lives. The few bits of characterization they have that don't do this are so superficial that they barely qualify as characterization (e.g. Peach likes baking cakes).

Confirmed, Eli is racist against bakers.
So, Peach doing things with Mario is not cause she wants to, it's only to better Mario?
And Peach doing things without Mario are...what? Not good enough? Well unfortunately for you, that's a matter of preference, cause it seems to be good enough for a lot of people, myself included
I can tell you that she's soft spoken, gentle, graceful, a bit of a ditz, enjoys gardens and likes baking, all I can gather from what little we see of her in the main games, and the spin-offs, when she has more screen time, we learn even more about her, like how she's surprisingly quick to anger when Mario's not around.
Are you telling me none of that matters to you? That's not enough to identify who Princess Peach Toadstool is? I'm sorry, but if that's the case, then that's your problem, and I can't help you with that.

And what of Zelda? Each Zelda is characterized, and each Zelda is different, soo much so that the fans can do things like this:

For better or worse, each Zelda is identifiable as a person, because they get the characterization while they're active, but if that's not enough for you, then I can't help you.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

You say women looked down on Peach cause she's always getting kidnapped, I say women look up to Peach despite her always getting kidnapped
I'm pointing out it goes both ways.

Queen Latifah isn't attractive?

Regardless, for every one less-attractive female celebrity you show me, I could show you 10 that are attractive. I can't believe you're even trying to argue this.

You said  below average

Sure, you may can name more above average women, but that's not the point, the point is I can make a list of below average looking women that have, or had been on TV or movies, I may not be able to tell you their names, but that's cause I'm not a movie guy, but I certaintly remember their faces.
And they got their through their hard work, training, and going for the castings that acknowledge them

Or, do they not matter simply because there are more above average women interested in acting?
Does the labour of the hardworking sloth not matter because there are more rabbits working?
Is a company racist if it hires more white men than black men? Pfft, of course it is. It's totally not possible that the more qualified men just so happened to be white, yup, has to be racism.

It's just as common for the woman to be seen as the bad guy in this situation, so no it's not sexist.

No, no it's not, you can't tell me it's just as common.

Are you also gonna tell me it's common for women to be retarded in sitcoms?
Cause I remember back in ye olde days of Jimmy Neutron, Whenever there's a husband and wife, the husband is always the less mature, borderline retarded one, while the wife is always the more mature responsible one.
Oh, but they have that one episode where the wife goofs up, that makes everything better right?

[shadowDOESrock]

Regardless, for every one less-attractive female celebrity you show me, I could show you 10 that are attractive.

This also counts for men.
No one wants to watch ugly people.

[Elija2]

Simply using a black man as a drug dealer isn't calling attention to anything. If they go out of their way to point out that he's black, then that's when I have a problem, unless they're going somewhere with it.

It is if the majority of games use the stereotype. That's the thing. Examined alone, Peach being a stereotypical damsel is harmless and not indicative of anything, but when the stereotypical depiction is a common trope in gaming then it's indicative of widespread sexist beliefs held by game developers.

Exactly
Cause a carrier pidgeon is used to carry messages, not people. A carrier pigeon can carry small items in and out fine, they're small, hard to notice, hard to catch, and pretty quick, but they can't carry a whole person, that's just not in their power.
If you make a carrier pigeon, with all these strengths, and can just as easily carry a whole person, that'd be a pretty powerful tool, soo powerful, why wouldn't everyone use it?
Why wouldn't everyone just use the carrier pigeons to just travel to where they wanted? Wouldn't that be really convenient? Why would anyone bother walking anywhere when you can just have this almighty bird just carry you everywhere?
Now imagine if something like that existed in a video game. Would that be exciting to watch? Or play?

I think you're overanalyzing this. It's a Mario game, it's not aiming for realism.

And this is just a false equivalence. Or are you saying that a game where Peach isn't the damsel in distress wouldn't be fun to play?

Well thinking it's cool is harmless, it's especially harmless if he understands why it's entertainment.

It's not harmless if people begin to think that all men must be tough.

Confirmed, Eli is racist against bakers.
So, Peach doing things with Mario is not cause she wants to, it's only to better Mario?
And Peach doing things without Mario are...what? Not good enough? Well unfortunately for you, that's a matter of preference, cause it seems to be good enough for a lot of people, myself included
I can tell you that she's soft spoken, gentle, graceful, a bit of a ditz, enjoys gardens and likes baking, all I can gather from what little we see of her in the main games, and the spin-offs, when she has more screen time, we learn even more about her, like how she's surprisingly quick to anger when Mario's not around.
Are you telling me none of that matters to you? That's not enough to identify who Princess Peach Toadstool is? I'm sorry, but if that's the case, then that's your problem, and I can't help you with that.

And what of Zelda? Each Zelda is characterized, and each Zelda is different, soo much so that the fans can do things like this:

For better or worse, each Zelda is identifiable as a person, because they get the characterization while they're active, but if that's not enough for you, then I can't help you.

Well yeah, what else does she do in the main games? In SMB1 Peach does nothing. In SMB3 Peach sends Mario items to help him on his quest. In SMW Peach does nothing. In SM64 Peach calls Mario over to her castle so that he can discover she's been captured. In SMS Mario and Peach go on vacation so that Mario can be accused of vandalizing the island. Peach has an opportunity here to attempt to clear Mario's name and actually help out but she doesn't. Peach is later accused of being Bowser Jr.'s mom which she just accepts. In NSMB1, NSMB2, NSMBWii, and NSMBU Peach does nothing. In SMG1 and SMG2 Peach calls Mario over to her castle so that he can witness her being captured. In SM3DL Peach does nothing.

Zelda does get more characterization, but she still gets relegated to being the damsel in distress when we know she is stronger than that. In OoT Zelda becomes Sheik who is a strong and helpful female character. But of course as soon as she turns back into Zelda she gets captured. It's the same thing in WW. Tetra is this strong and cool character, and then as soon as she turns into Zelda she becomes helpless and gets captured.

And come on, the original LoZ and LttP didn't give Zelda any characterization.

You say women looked down on Peach cause she's always getting kidnapped, I say women look up to Peach despite her always getting kidnapped
I'm pointing out it goes both ways.

I doubt that many people look up to Peach and wish they could be her.

You said  below average

Sure, you may can name more above average women, but that's not the point, the point is I can make a list of below average looking women that have, or had been on TV or movies, I may not be able to tell you their names, but that's cause I'm not a movie guy, but I certaintly remember their faces.
And they got their through their hard work, training, and going for the castings that acknowledge them

Or, do they not matter simply because there are more above average women interested in acting?
Does the labour of the hardworking sloth not matter because there are more rabbits working?
Is a company racist if it hires more white men than black men? Pfft, of course it is. It's totally not possible that the more qualified men just so happened to be white, yup, has to be racism.

I'm saying that less-attractive women are at a disadvantage if they want to be successful. They either need to pretty themselves up or deal with being typecasted as an ugly character.

Why is it that black people are usually less qualified than white people? Because they are systemically disadvantaged in society and aren't given the chance to have the same quality of life as white people. But that's an entirely different discussion that I'd rather not get into.

No, no it's not, you can't tell me it's just as common.

Are you also gonna tell me it's common for women to be retarded in sitcoms?
Cause I remember back in ye olde days of Jimmy Neutron, Whenever there's a husband and wife, the husband is always the less mature, borderline retarded one, while the wife is always the more mature responsible one.
Oh, but they have that one episode where the wife goofs up, that makes everything better right?

No, that's a common sexist trope.

This also counts for men.
No one wants to watch ugly people.

But men don't need to pretty themselves up as much as women. Men are allowed to look average.

[shadowDOESrock]

But men don't need to pretty themselves up as much as women. Men are allowed to look average.

No, they're not. Unless they're comedians, in which case the same thing also applies to the females.

[Hakudamashi]

It is if the majority of games use the stereotype.

No, it's not, it's only a problem cause you make it one. A drug dealer simply being black doesn't mean anything till someone, within the world, brings it to everyone's attention that he's black. If the story and characters don't care that he's black, why should I?

Examined alone, Peach being a stereotypical damsel is harmless and not indicative of anything,

Unfortunately for you, that's where I start and stop with my entertainment. If the game or whatever doesn't draw attention to it, then neither will I.

but when the stereotypical depiction is a common trope in gaming then it's indicative of widespread sexist beliefs held by game developers.

Aaaaaand, ya lost me.
It's just a way to start the game, saving someone you love is probably the first thing that comes to mind. Having a masters in story telling is not a requirement to make a game.

I think you're overanalyzing this. It's a Mario game, it's not aiming for realism.

You're right, it's not aiming for realism
It's not aiming for sexism either
It's just a fun video game franchise, with a very simple, and minimal story.

And this is just a false equivalence.

No it's not
You said Peach can send items, therefore she can escape.
And I'm saying it's like someone trapped uses a carrier pigeon to send a message, sure the pigeon can go in and out fine, but it doesn't mean she can.
Whatever method Peach is using to send the items, clearly she can't use it to escape. If it were that easy, she would've done so.

Or are you saying that a game where Peach isn't the damsel in distress wouldn't be fun to play?

I dunno how you came to that, buuuut:
Super Paper Mario, Mario Tennis, Mario Kart, Super Mario RPG, Super Smash Bros., Super Princess Peach, Super Mario 3D World I played and enjoyed, so no, I'm not saying that, at all.

.
Well yeah, what else does she do in the main games? In SMB1 Peach does nothing. In SMB3 Peach sends Mario items to help him on his quest. In SMW Peach does nothing. In SM64 Peach calls Mario over to her castle so that he can discover she's been captured. In SMS Mario and Peach go on vacation so that Mario can be accused of vandalizing the island. Peach has an opportunity here to attempt to clear Mario's name and actually help out but she doesn't. Peach is later accused of being Bowser Jr.'s mom which she just accepts. In NSMB1, NSMB2, NSMBWii, and NSMBU Peach does nothing. In SMG1 and SMG2 Peach calls Mario over to her castle so that he can witness her being captured. In SM3DL Peach does nothing.

Sounds like you personally just don't like Peach, which is fine.

Zelda does get more characterization, but she still gets relegated to being the damsel in distress when we know she is stronger than that. In OoT Zelda becomes Sheik who is a strong and helpful female character. But of course as soon as she turns back into Zelda she gets captured. It's the same thing in WW. Tetra is this strong and cool character, and then as soon as she turns into Zelda she becomes helpless and gets captured.

In the case of Sheik, That was cause Ganondorf couldn't find her, cause disguise and magic n' shit.
In the case of Tetra, that was cause Ganondorf couldn't find her, cause disguise and magic n' shit.
You don't fuck with Ganondorf man, cause he's not a man that fucks around.

Besides, wasn't your argument that she had no characterization?

And come on, the original LoZ and LttP didn't give Zelda any characterization.

Not enough for you, but enough for most Zelda fans.

I doubt that many people look up to Peach and wish they could be her.

Word of advice, don't visit Jamaica, you'd probably have a heart attack.

I'm saying that less-attractive women are at a disadvantage if they want to be successful. They either need to pretty themselves up or deal with being typecasted as an ugly character.

That is just incorrect, in every way.

Why is it that black people are usually less qualified than white people?

I was being hypothe-

Because they are systemically disadvantaged in society and aren't given the chance to have the same quality of life as white people.

No, that's a common sexist trope.

Oh, well, we agree on something. But my viewpoint remains the same, if the show doesn't bring attention to it, neither will I.

But men don't need to pretty themselves up as much as women. Men are allowed to look average.

Men are not allowed to look average, men have to pretty themselves up too when on TV.
It may not be as difficult since most men prefer to keep their hair short, and they don't have bras to worry about, but they have to be presentable on camera just like women do.

[Chimmy Chonga]

[Meme Master Flex]

Why is it that black people are usually less qualified than white people? Because they are systemically disadvantaged in society and aren't given the chance to have the same quality of life as white people. But that's an entirely different discussion that I'd rather not get into.

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you seriously this deluded? The only people who are disadvantaged are people who don't have any experience. As a Black Male living in NEW YORK FUCKING CITY, of all places, I can say that I am not disadvantaged in the SLIGHTEST. And as far as I'm concerned I have the same "quality of life" as a white person would here. I was trying to keep out of this discussion, but this just made me so fucking furious that I couldn't contain it anymore. Your pseudo racism is so fucking bullshit it's not even funny. The Principal at my school is black, as are most of my teachers in the college courses that I'm taking 2 YEARS AHEAD OF TIME. So yeah, before you start saying stupid shit, look it the fuck up on somewhere that isn't Fox News, please.

But men don't need to pretty themselves up as much as women. Men are allowed to look average.

Again, are you fucking kidding me? I've been teased and bullied for most of my life for how I look, how I dress, etc. To sit here and say "men are allowed to look average" is again, another fucking insult. Please, before you start throwing fucking claims out there willy nilly, understand what the fuck you're saying and make sure it isn't Walmart-Brand Bullshit.

[Elija2]

No, it's not, it's only a problem cause you make it one. A drug dealer simply being black doesn't mean anything till someone, within the world, brings it to everyone's attention that he's black. If the story and characters don't care that he's black, why should I?

But if black people were depicted this way in the majority of media while other races weren't then it would be pretty obvious racism.

Unfortunately for you, that's where I start and stop with my entertainment. If the game or whatever doesn't draw attention to it, then neither will I.

So you're fine with racism and sexism as long as it's subtle?

Aaaaaand, ya lost me.
It's just a way to start the game, saving someone you love is probably the first thing that comes to mind. Having a masters in story telling is not a requirement to make a game.

It's unfair to women. Female characters are almost always the helpless victim and never the hero. Who likes to be portrayed this way in a medium that's supposed to make you feel good?

You're right, it's not aiming for realism
It's not aiming for sexism either
It's just a fun video game franchise, with a very simple, and minimal story.

Obviously Nintendo weren't aiming to be sexist, but that's how the trope comes across.

No it's not
You said Peach can send items, therefore she can escape.
And I'm saying it's like someone trapped uses a carrier pigeon to send a message, sure the pigeon can go in and out fine, but it doesn't mean she can.
Whatever method Peach is using to send the items, clearly she can't use it to escape. If it were that easy, she would've done so.

In response to me saying that Peach should be able to escape, you said that a carrier pigeon that could carry people would ruin the game. So your argument was that Peach shouldn't be able to escape because it would ruin the game?

I dunno how you came to that, buuuut:
Super Paper Mario, Mario Tennis, Mario Kart, Super Mario RPG, Super Smash Bros., Super Princess Peach, Super Mario 3D World I played and enjoyed, so no, I'm not saying that, at all.

For the record, I'm not talking about the spin-offs.

But don't even get me started on Super Princess Peach.

Sounds like you personally just don't like Peach, which is fine.

No, it sounds like she's just a shitty character in the main Mario titles.

In the case of Sheik, That was cause Ganondorf couldn't find her, cause disguise and magic n' shit.
In the case of Tetra, that was cause Ganondorf couldn't find her, cause disguise and magic n' shit.
You don't fuck with Ganondorf man, cause he's not a man that fucks around.

Besides, wasn't your argument that she had no characterization?

Why didn't she stay in disguise if she knew Ganondorf was looking for her? Because Link needs a princess to save.

She does have characterization, just very little.

Not enough for you, but enough for most Zelda fans.

This is literally all Zelda does in LoZ:



Yeah, great characterization.

That is just incorrect, in every way.

Except in the way that's backed up by research.

Yes, I know that article isn't specific to actors but it shows that unattractive women get far less job opportunities than even unattractive men, even if they have the exact same qualifications. You don't think this would extend to an acting career where the majority of their time is spent in front of a camera?

Men are not allowed to look average, men have to pretty themselves up too when on TV.
It may not be as difficult since most men prefer to keep their hair short, and they don't have bras to worry about, but they have to be presentable on camera just like women do.

Presentable, sure. Attractive, no.

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you seriously this deluded? The only people who are disadvantaged are people who don't have any experience. As a Black Male living in NEW YORK FUCKING CITY, of all places, I can say that I am not disadvantaged in the SLIGHTEST. And as far as I'm concerned I have the same "quality of life" as a white person would here. I was trying to keep out of this discussion, but this just made me so fucking furious that I couldn't contain it anymore. Your pseudo racism is so fucking bullshit it's not even funny. The Principal at my school is black, as are most of my teachers in the college courses that I'm taking 2 YEARS AHEAD OF TIME. So yeah, before you start saying stupid shit, look it the fuck up on somewhere that isn't Fox News, please.

Do you think I'm pulling this out of my ass? Data shows that black people do not get an equal opportunity at education, making it harder for them to gain any experience. Just because your anecdotal evidence shows that you had a fair shake, doesn't mean everyone else does.

Again, are you fucking kidding me? I've been teased and bullied for most of my life for how I look, how I dress, etc. To sit here and say "men are allowed to look average" is again, another fucking insult. Please, before you start throwing fucking claims out there willy nilly, understand what the fuck you're saying and make sure it isn't Walmart-Brand Bullshit.

I was talking in regards to getting a job. If there's one thing bullies are good at, it's giving everyone an equal opportunity to be their victim.

[shadowDOESrock]

I wouldnt want to hire ugly people either
That's bad for image

[Meme Master Flex]

Do you think I'm pulling this out of my ass? Data shows that black people do not get an equal opportunity at education, making it harder for them to gain any experience. Just because your anecdotal evidence shows that you had a fair shake, doesn't mean everyone else does.

You want to know why black kids don't have a fair shot? Because most of them don't even fucking bother to care about their education, or anything else for that matter. If you could see what I see every day, you'd understand why any type of study on this topic is bullshit. It doesn't account for the people actually doing what they're supposed to do. There aren't a lot of black kids in my school that pass. Why? Because they never fucking come, or they always cut class or when they are in class, as rare as that is, they don't do anything but act like a first grader or just sleep. Middle-Class America always wants to fucking call "oh we're so sorry for the blacks" and other stupid bullshit but with the environment half these kids grow up in, no support or balance, it doesn't take much thought to come to a conclusion that these kids don't fucking get it, because they were never taught to get it. Most of them don't apply themselves, most of them don't fucking care, and it's even more insulting to have you sit here and pretend like you give a fuck about race issues. Who the fuck are you? What the fuck have you done to fix any of this? What can you even do to fix it? It pisses me off when people bring up studies like this but don't understand the fucking reason behind it, or don't even care to do their own damn research, because, ya-know, if you were actually in a school that was mostly made up of minorities, you'd understand why, but you're not, so sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up, please, and stop with your social justice bullshit, because it's unneeded and you've shown multiple times that you don't even know first fucking hand what the fuck is going on.

[Elija2]

You want to know why black kids don't have a fair shot? Because most of them don't even fucking bother to care about their education, or anything else for that matter. If you could see what I see every day, you'd understand why any type of study on this topic is bullshit. It doesn't account for the people actually doing what they're supposed to do. There aren't a lot of black kids in my school that pass. Why? Because they never fucking come, or they always cut class or when they are in class, as rare as that is, they don't do anything but act like a first grader or just sleep. Middle-Class America always wants to fucking call "oh we're so sorry for the blacks" and other stupid bullshit but with the environment half these kids grow up in, no support or balance, it doesn't take much thought to come to a conclusion that these kids don't fucking get it, because they were never taught to get it. Most of them don't apply themselves, most of them don't fucking care, and it's even more insulting to have you sit here and pretend like you give a fuck about race issues. Who the fuck are you? What the fuck have you done to fix any of this? What can you even do to fix it? It pisses me off when people bring up studies like this but don't understand the fucking reason behind it, or don't even care to do their own damn research, because, ya-know, if you were actually in a school that was mostly made up of minorities, you'd understand why, but you're not, so sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up, please, and stop with your social justice bullshit, because it's unneeded and you've shown multiple times that you don't even know first fucking hand what the fuck is going on.

Are you saying that black people are just naturally lazier than other races?

And you even said it, these kids grow up in a shitty environment and don't get any support. Many of them can't even afford to go to school, and the ones that can don't take it seriously because society already expects them to be failures.

And what about only 57% of black students having access to math and science courses? How are they to blame for that?

[Randomsonicfan]

Are you saying that black people are just naturally lazier than other races?

And you even said it, these kids grow up in a shitty environment and don't get any support. Many of them can't even afford to go to school, and the ones that can don't take it seriously because society already expects them to be failures.

And what about only 57% of black students having access to math and science courses? How are they to blame for that?

They have free public education, unless you're talking about college. And the ones who do make it into college are the lucky few who actually know their shit. The rest just don't give a shit.

[Meme Master Flex]

Are you saying that black people are just naturally lazier than other races?

And you even said it, these kids grow up in a shitty environment and don't get any support. Many of them can't even afford to go to school, and the ones that can don't take it seriously because society already expects them to be failures.

And what about only 57% of black students having access to math and science courses? How are they to blame for that?

No, it's not about them growing up in a shitty environment, it's about them growing up in said environment and doing nothing about it. I grew up in a fucking homeless shelter, moving from place to place because my mother couldn't support us after my father had died. Society expects me to be a failure, and look where I am now. Also, public school is free, and many associations give out free scholarships just for being black. Black people are usually left behind because they're not motivated and don't feel like doing anything. And if you want to play the race card, why is it that even though I grew up under most of the same circumstances as these people, and I'm able to come out just fine? Why is it that most of the courses I'm taking right now are college level, as compared to a lot of the people in my school who are black and are still taking 9th grade level courses? It's not even about environment, or how they're being put down apparently. It's about how they choose to overcome that, regardless of their race or creed. If they actually cared enough, this wouldn't be an issue, but because it's black people, and our ancestors fucked up and were racist towards anyone who wasn't white, this is still an issue. The government basically fucking HANDS THESE PEOPLE AN EDUCATION, A WAY OUT and they do fuck all with it, because they'd rather stay home and smoke weed and play video games all day, and this doesn't just apply to black people, this applies to anyone, it's not a race issue and it never will be. It's that people want to make it an issue about race because they want a scapegoat, when it was never really about race to begin with, it's about the youth and the decisions they make for their future. It's just that most of these studies revolve around black people being oppressed and disadvantaged, because nobody would read a study or look at an article about white people being oppressed or disadvantaged. What i'm trying to say is that it's not an issue with black people, it's an issue with people who don't care about what they do or what lies ahead for themselves.

[Hakudamashi]

But if black people were depicted this way in the majority of media while other races weren't then it would be pretty obvious racism.

Sure Eli, whatever floats your boat, I just don't care. I don't care that it's mostly a black man, that's not important to me.

So you're fine with racism and sexism as long as it's subtle?

Subtle, not brought up, and doesn't hinder my experience, then yes, I'm fine with it. Guess that makes me an evil man.

It's unfair to women.

No it's not, there are games with women that don't follow these tropes, many of them, there's diversity and it's getting better each day. They can just not play them if it bothers them soo much, they have free will and choice.

Female characters are almost always the helpless victim and never the hero.

Why would the hero be a helpless victim? How does that make sense?
Females have other roles in other games, go play those.
Male characters are almost always the rough and tuff jerk that only knows how to kill, why can't he be a farmer for once?
What's that? Harvest Moon? Animal Crossing?

Who likes to be portrayed this way in a medium that's supposed to make you feel good?

First of all, video games don't have to make you feel good, Spec Ops:The Line and Horror games say hi.
Secondly, if their issue is portrayal, then that's where games like Saints Row and Sunset Overdrive come in, when you can make ur own character.

Obviously Nintendo weren't aiming to be sexist, but that's how the trope comes across.

I have never found, and still don't find this trope "sexist". It's just about saving a person that is in peril, and saving another people is an easy way to motivate people to quest.

In response to me saying that Peach should be able to escape, you said that a carrier pigeon that could carry people would ruin the game. So your argument was that Peach shouldn't be able to escape because it would ruin the game?

She shouldn't be able to escape cause that would mean Bowser runs a shitty prison. And if she could easily escape, then Bowser becomes even less of a threat than he already is. If Peach can easily escape, then what will be the point of Bowser?
If you undermine Bowser's kidnappings, which is like, one of the few things he's good at, then what would any of his future plans? What are his goals? His ambitions?

For the record, I'm not talking about the spin-offs.

Why not? Why don't they count? You're arguing that Peach and Zelda are nothing but props, but they do more in other games and appearances, why don't they count? Why can't they count?

But don't even get me started on Super Princess Peach.

Yes, she rekks shit with her emotions and it's established she uses a vibrator. I found it awesomely hilarious.

No, it sounds like she's just a shitty character in the main Mario titles.

She does have characterization, just very little.

Funny
This whole thing started cause I disagreed with the notion that Peach and Zelda have no character, and here you are, admitting they have character.

Why didn't she stay in disguise if she knew Ganondorf was looking for her? Because Link needs a princess to save.

Because both Link and Zelda are needed to seal Ganondorf, she had to come out of disguise so the Triforce of wisdom can reveal itself so that the sealing can happen. And I already said that Ganondorf can track her down once her triforce piece is revealed.
But I'm sure you're gonna come back with "Why can't she seal him while in disguise? Because Link needs a princess to save"
Y'know what? If that's all you want to see it as, and what you want to boil it down to, then fine, I hope you're happy with that.

This is literally all Zelda does in LoZ:

That, and the manga, and the Hyrule historian thingie. Zelda fans got enough characterization, and I'd think they're the ones that matter here.

Except in the way that's backed up by research.

Yes, I know that article isn't specific to actors but it shows that unattractive women get far less job opportunities than even unattractive men, even if they have the exact same qualifications. You don't think this would extend to an acting career where the majority of their time is spent in front of a camera?

Having volunteered at different businesses, there are soo many factors to consider here I'm not even gonna bother tackling this.
I'll just leave with I'm not convinced.

Presentable, sure. Attractive, no.

Please tell me you're not being serious right now.

Do you think I'm pulling this out of my ass? Data shows that black people do not get an equal opportunity at education, making it harder for them to gain any experience. Just because your anecdotal evidence shows that you had a fair shake, doesn't mean everyone else does.

Nope, I'm done, I'm not touching this.

[Chimmy Chonga]

It's unfair to women. Female characters are almost always the helpless victim and never the hero. Who likes to be portrayed this way in a medium that's supposed to make you feel good?

[jkid101094]

Eli please stop arguing while the people here still have a shred of respect for you. I know you want to "win" the argument here but we're hitting the point where it's impossible to take you seriously.

Also who the fuck changed the topic title? The OP makes me look like a stupid douche. BC

[shadowDOESrock]

[Elija2]

No, it's not about them growing up in a shitty environment, it's about them growing up in said environment and doing nothing about it. I grew up in a fucking homeless shelter, moving from place to place because my mother couldn't support us after my father had died. Society expects me to be a failure, and look where I am now. Also, public school is free, and many associations give out free scholarships just for being black. Black people are usually left behind because they're not motivated and don't feel like doing anything. And if you want to play the race card, why is it that even though I grew up under most of the same circumstances as these people, and I'm able to come out just fine? Why is it that most of the courses I'm taking right now are college level, as compared to a lot of the people in my school who are black and are still taking 9th grade level courses? It's not even about environment, or how they're being put down apparently. It's about how they choose to overcome that, regardless of their race or creed. If they actually cared enough, this wouldn't be an issue, but because it's black people, and our ancestors fucked up and were racist towards anyone who wasn't white, this is still an issue. The government basically fucking HANDS THESE PEOPLE AN EDUCATION, A WAY OUT and they do fuck all with it, because they'd rather stay home and smoke weed and play video games all day, and this doesn't just apply to black people, this applies to anyone, it's not a race issue and it never will be. It's that people want to make it an issue about race because they want a scapegoat, when it was never really about race to begin with, it's about the youth and the decisions they make for their future. It's just that most of these studies revolve around black people being oppressed and disadvantaged, because nobody would read a study or look at an article about white people being oppressed or disadvantaged. What i'm trying to say is that it's not an issue with black people, it's an issue with people who don't care about what they do or what lies ahead for themselves.

What are they supposed to do about it? You're acting like it's easy to get out of poverty. Yeah, you came out of it, but most people don't.

You say that it's not a race issue but it's something that predominantly happens to black people. Why do you think that is?

Why are black students more likely to have shittier teachers? Why are black students less likely to have access to certain courses like math and science? Why are black kids most likely to get suspended in preschool? None of these are the fault of the kids.

Sure Eli, whatever floats your boat, I just don't care. I don't care that it's mostly a black man, that's not important to me.

Well many people do care. Why do you think they're complaining about it?

Subtle, not brought up, and doesn't hinder my experience, then yes, I'm fine with it. Guess that makes me an evil man.

It makes you a person who tolerates racism and sexism even though you know that it exists.

No it's not, there are games with women that don't follow these tropes, many of them, there's diversity and it's getting better each day. They can just not play them if it bothers them soo much, they have free will and choice.

No there aren't. So many of the biggest games use these tropes and for many of them there is no female-friendly substitution.

Telling people that they can just not play the games is not a defence, you're basically just dismissing their complaints.

Why would the hero be a helpless victim? How does that make sense?
Females have other roles in other games, go play those.
Male characters are almost always the rough and tuff jerk that only knows how to kill, why can't he be a farmer for once?
What's that? Harvest Moon? Animal Crossing?

Did I say that the hero should be the helpless victim?

Again, you're being dismissive.

First of all, video games don't have to make you feel good, Spec Ops:The Line and Horror games say hi.
Secondly, if their issue is portrayal, then that's where games like Saints Row and Sunset Overdrive come in, when you can make ur own character.

Games like Mario are meant to make you feel good.

And so basically a woman's only hope at being portrayed well in a videogame is if she creates her own character. Because expecting developers not to be sexist is asking for too much.

I have never found, and still don't find this trope "sexist". It's just about saving a person that is in peril, and saving another people is an easy way to motivate people to quest.

Yes, it is easy. It's easy because it's a woman and women are always portrayed as being weak and helpless.

She shouldn't be able to escape cause that would mean Bowser runs a shitty prison. And if she could easily escape, then Bowser becomes even less of a threat than he already is. If Peach can easily escape, then what will be the point of Bowser?
If you undermine Bowser's kidnappings, which is like, one of the few things he's good at, then what would any of his future plans? What are his goals? His ambitions?

So you admit that Bowser is already a little threat but that having Peach escape would just be too much. I mean, Bowser is a buffoon but it would take a real moron to have a woman escape from his clutches!

Bowser's goals are to rule the world. He can do that without kidnapping Peach in every game.

Why not? Why don't they count? You're arguing that Peach and Zelda are nothing but props, but they do more in other games and appearances, why don't they count? Why can't they count?

They do count, that's just not what we're talking about. Everyone is usually treated equal in the spinoffs, but why must the main games still treat Peach as a damsel?

Funny
This whole thing started cause I disagreed with the notion that Peach and Zelda have no character, and here you are, admitting they have character.

Peach does have no character, at least in the main games. Zelda is characterized a bit more but she's still relegated to being the damsel in distress even though it's already established that she can be a much stronger character.

Because both Link and Zelda are needed to seal Ganondorf, she had to come out of disguise so the Triforce of wisdom can reveal itself so that the sealing can happen. And I already said that Ganondorf can track her down once her triforce piece is revealed.
But I'm sure you're gonna come back with "Why can't she seal him while in disguise? Because Link needs a princess to save"
Y'know what? If that's all you want to see it as, and what you want to boil it down to, then fine, I hope you're happy with that.

Well, why did she need to be captured? Link already had a motivation to go after Ganondorf. She gets kidnapped right after he collects all of the medallions and the only thing left to do in the game after that is go to Ganon's castle which Link would have done anyway. Zelda being kidnapped is completely unnecessary plot-wise.

That, and the manga, and the Hyrule historian thingie. Zelda fans got enough characterization, and I'd think they're the ones that matter here.

Not really because none of that is portrayed in the game.

Please tell me you're not being serious right now.

I'm not? Look at almost any TV show or movie. Most of the time the male characters look average but the female characters all look beautiful.

Eli please stop arguing while the people here still have a shred of respect for you. I know you want to "win" the argument here but we're hitting the point where it's impossible to take you seriously.

I think that once you started calling me an SJW as a pejorative without even knowing what it means, I already lost all of your respect.

And congratulations guys, I say that most female characters are the helpless victim and you post a couple of examples where they aren't. You sure disproved me.

[Chimmy Chonga]

[Meme Master Flex]

What are they supposed to do about it? You're acting like it's easy to get out of poverty. Yeah, you came out of it, but most people don't.

Most people don't because it's easy to let the government give you free money and it's also easy to collect food stamps.

You say that it's not a race issue but it's something that predominantly happens to black people. Why do you think that is?

No, it doesn't predominately happen to black people, it happens to everyone, regardless of race. It's just that people only notice the minorities such as blacks because of the history we have with them and they still want to make race an issue.

Why are black students more likely to have shittier teachers?

Are you fucking stupid?

Why are black students less likely to have access to certain courses like math and science?

Those courses are mandatory to graduate in the United States. So I don't know what the fuck you're on about.

Why are black kids most likely to get suspended in preschool? None of these are the fault of the kids.

Okay, let's take an example. This woman who wrote the article, Tunette Powell, upon googling her name, you can see what state and town she lives in on the Facebook link.



Omaha, Nebraska. One of the worst places in America to be black. If this woman planned herself a little better, then maybe she wouldn't have PLANTED HERSELF IN ONE OF THE MOST RACIST PLACES IN THE COUNTRY.

I've been to other states with my friends on trips, and one of my Hispanic friends was called Mexican when we went to Nebraska for a college trip. She was from Venezuela. Another one of my Hispanic friends who is from the Dominican Republic was talking to my other friend in Spanish at a gas station while our bus was being filled up, and someone called them dirty beaners. I personally wasn't called anything racist during our time there so I can't speak in that respect, but I've heard complaints from other people that I know that there were less than pleasurable things said to them. Anywhere where there's a uneducated mass of people, you can count there's going to be a few racists thrown into the mix, so to say that it's just black people is so fucking close-minded.

[Hakudamashi]

Well many people do care. Why do you think they're complaining about it?

Good for them, I hope they're happy.

No there aren't. So many of the biggest games use these tropes and for many of them there is no female-friendly substitution.

Female friendly
huh
Didn't know women needed a game just for them to have fun...

Telling people that they can just not play the games is not a defence, you're basically just dismissing their complaints.

Fine, then I'm a dismissive ass, feel free to hate me, I'll keep playing the games I like thank you.

Did I say that the hero should be the helpless victim?

It's unfair to women. Female characters are almost always the helpless victim and never the hero.

Reading it again, you instead implied that there are no female heroes, which is factually incorrect.

Games like Mario are meant to make you feel good.

You were being general.

And so basically a woman's only hope at being portrayed well in a videogame is if she creates her own character. Because expecting developers not to be sexist is asking for too much.

WELL
Considering the rate of sales of games with female protags versus games with male protags, yes, it is quite a lot to ask to "just make a female protag".

Yes, it is easy. It's easy because it's a woman and women are always portrayed as being weak and helpless.

It's easy because saving another human being is a quick concept to get across. If you wanna be a cynic about it, then be my guest.

So you admit that Bowser is already a little threat

Less
LESS
LESS!
I said LESS!

I mean, Bowser is a buffoon but it would take a real moron to have a woman escape from his clutches!

Bowser is not a bafoon, don't call him a bafoon, arrogance is not synonymous with being an idiot, that line of thinking ruined Knuckles, don't make it ruin someone else.

Bowser's goals are to rule the world. He can do that without kidnapping Peach in every game.

Bowser's goal is not to rule the world, it never was, only Mario Galaxy 1 did that. He thinks he's the best, he thinks he deserves the best. He wants Peach cause she's the prettiest, he wants to beat Mario to prove he's the best. He's not a monster, he's just a big dumb jerk, a bully, a dick with a big ego.

.
They do count, that's just not what we're talking about.

Yes it is what we're talking about, I disagreed with Anita cause she said Peach and Zelda have no character, but they do, and their characterizations are furthered in the spin-offs, they are relevant to the point I want to get across.

Everyone is usually treated equal in the spinoffs, but why must the main games still treat Peach as a damsel?

Why does Bowser always gotta be a dick? And why does Mario never say "fuck it" and don't adventure?

Peach does have no character, at least in the main games.

You can't call shitty what isn't there.

Zelda is characterized a bit more but she's still relegated to being the damsel in distress even though it's already established that she can be a much stronger character.

Being captured by the better person makes her less of a person.
That's mean, you're mean.

Well, why did she need to be captured? Link already had a motivation to go after Ganondorf. She gets kidnapped right after he collects all of the medallions and the only thing left to do in the game after that is go to Ganon's castle which Link would have done anyway. Zelda being kidnapped is completely unnecessary plot-wise.

Beause in Ocarina of Time, Zelda has a spell to completely immobilize him, why WOULDN'T he get rid of her? He can at least have a chance beating Link in a sword fight, since he has magic.
In Wind Waker, Zelda has the light arrows, which fucking rek him, and he knows it, again, why WOULDN'T he get rid of her? And again, he can beat Link in a sword fight
He weighed his options, and decided to petrify Zelda cause she's the bigger threat to him, and doesn't think much of Link.

Not really because none of that is portrayed in the game.

Then that's your problem.

I'm not? Look at almost any TV show or movie. Most of the time the male characters look average but the female characters all look beautiful.

And congratulations guys, I say that most female characters are the helpless victim and you post a couple of examples where they aren't. You sure disproved me.

Couple=two
Are you gonna be that guy? Are you either never gonna accept that there are many games with good female protags? Or will you never be satisfied until we post every game with a female protag ever made?

[Elija2]

Most people don't because it's easy to let the government give you free money and it's also easy to collect food stamps.

Living off of food stamps is hardly a good life. If they thought that they'd have a chance at being successful they would go for it.

No, it doesn't predominately happen to black people, it happens to everyone, regardless of race. It's just that people only notice the minorities such as blacks because of the history we have with them and they still want to make race an issue.

What do you mean people only notice minorities? Obviously the data takes everyone into account. You seriously think that they're just leaving out similar information regarding white people?

Are you fucking stupid?

No, black students are less likely to have experienced teachers than other races. Read the link that I posted.

Those courses are mandatory to graduate in the United States. So I don't know what the fuck you're on about.

Maybe if you read the link that I posted you'd have an idea.

Okay, let's take an example. This woman who wrote the article, Tunette Powell, upon googling her name, you can see what state and town she lives in on the Facebook link.



Omaha, Nebraska. One of the worst places in America to be black. If this woman planned herself a little better, then maybe she wouldn't have PLANTED HERSELF IN ONE OF THE MOST RACIST PLACES IN THE COUNTRY.

Yeah, it's so easy to just pack up and move somewhere else. If it's such a simple solution, why doesn't everyone do it?

I've been to other states with my friends on trips, and one of my Hispanic friends was called Mexican when we went to Nebraska for a college trip. She was from Venezuela. Another one of my Hispanic friends who is from the Dominican Republic was talking to my other friend in Spanish at a gas station while our bus was being filled up, and someone called them dirty beaners. I personally wasn't called anything racist during our time there so I can't speak in that respect, but I've heard complaints from other people that I know that there were less than pleasurable things said to them. Anywhere where there's a uneducated mass of people, you can count there's going to be a few racists thrown into the mix, so to say that it's just black people is so fucking close-minded.

Where did I say that only black people are subjected to racism?

Female friendly
huh
Didn't know women needed a game just for them to have fun...

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

Reading it again, you instead implied that there are no female heroes, which is factually incorrect.

No, I implied that there are few.

You were being general.

Games in general are meant to make you feel good.

WELL
Considering the rate of sales of games with female protags versus games with male protags, yes, it is quite a lot to ask to "just make a female protag".

I'm not asking for a female protagonist (although more of them is certainly a good thing), I'm asking for less sexist representations of women in games. Nobody avoids buying a game because it's not sexist.

It's easy because saving another human being is a quick concept to get across. If you wanna be a cynic about it, then be my guest.

But why is it almost always a woman?

Bowser's goal is not to rule the world, it never was, only Mario Galaxy 1 did that. He thinks he's the best, he thinks he deserves the best. He wants Peach cause she's the prettiest, he wants to beat Mario to prove he's the best. He's not a monster, he's just a big dumb jerk, a bully, a dick with a big ego.

Bowser doesn't have to want Peach all the time.

Yes it is what we're talking about, I disagreed with Anita cause she said Peach and Zelda have no character, but they do, and their characterizations are furthered in the spin-offs, they are relevant to the point I want to get across.

Anita never said that Peach lacks character in the spinoffs, she was specifically pointing out her character in the main Mario games.

Why does Bowser always gotta be a dick? And why does Bowser never say "fuck it" and don't adventure?

Are you seriously equating the two?

Being captured by the better person makes her less of a person.
That's mean, you're mean.

It does when it's a constant in every single Zelda game.

Beause in Ocarina of Time, Zelda has a spell to completely immobilize him, why WOULDN'T he get rid of her? He can at least have a chance beating Link in a sword fight, since he has magic.
In Wind Waker, Zelda has the light arrows, which fucking rek him, and he knows it, again, why WOULDN'T he get rid of her? And again, he can beat Link in a sword fight
He weighed his options, and decided to petrify Zelda cause she's the bigger threat to him, and doesn't think much of Link.

That's not what I'm talking about. Why did the developers write for her to be kidnapped right before the end of the game when it wasn't needed to move the story along? Why wouldn't Link and Sheik just trek to Ganon's castle together?

Are you gonna be that guy? Are you either never gonna accept that there are many games with good female protags? Or will you never be satisfied until we post every game with a female protag ever made?

You're delusional if you think that the number of games with good female representation is even close to the number of games with good male representation.

[Chimmy Chonga]

symbolism

[shadowDOESrock]

Yeah, it's so easy to just pack up and move somewhere else. If it's such a simple solution, why doesn't everyone do it?

It is, though.

[Elija2]

It is, though.

Not if you can't afford to.

And seriously, how is avoiding the racism going to solve anything? It's still going to exist.

[Meme Master Flex]

Living off of food stamps is hardly a good life. If they thought that they'd have a chance at being successful they would go for it.

haha you're joking right? I know people, my own neighbors, who live off of food stamps and government assistance because it's a easy life. Public housing is accommodated to your income, so if you have a low income, you live for practically nothing. My Godmother lives in a 3 bedroom apartment for only 86 dollars a month because of public assistance. She gets all her food with, again, government assistance.

What do you mean people only notice minorities? Obviously the data takes everyone into account. You seriously think that they're just leaving out similar information regarding white people?

Yes, I do, because "WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING LEFT BEHIND" doesn't make a good headline, and it doesn't sell.

No, black students are less likely to have experienced teachers than other races. Read the link that I posted.

Again, as a black person taking college level courses in the 11th grade, I can personally say that this argument is bullshit.

Yeah, it's so easy to just pack up and move somewhere else. If it's such a simple solution, why doesn't everyone do it?

You have to realize the profession this woman is in, and the type of works she does. So yes, I would assume it would be easy for her to move out from whatever situation she is, I mean, if I was a parent, i'd want to have the best for my kids, regardless of poverty, wouldn't you? If I was in a state that was notoriously racist, why would I want to stay there? There are far better places to live in america that are very cheap and affordable, you just have to know where to look.

Where did I say that only black people are subjected to racism?

[Meme Master Flex]

getting real tired of ur shit

[shadowDOESrock]

And seriously, how is avoiding the racism going to solve anything? It's still going to exist.

It is going to exist forever.

You can't expect everywhere, everyone, and everything to be flowers and butterflies.

[Hakudamashi]

No, I implied that there are few.

Then pick ur words more carefully.

Games in general are meant to make you feel good.

No
games are an interactive medium to entertain, that is not limited to making you feel good.

I'm not asking for a female protagonist (although more of them is certainly a good thing), I'm asking for less sexist representations of women in games. Nobody avoids buying a game because it's not sexist.

Which is happening, maybe not at the speed or frequency you want, but it's happening, and we're playing and loving them.

But why is it almost always a woman?

Male writer
Male writes about saving a woman
Not hard to figure out.

Bowser doesn't have to want Peach all the time.

Don't tell Bowser what to want, Who are you to tell Bowser what to want?

Anita never said that Peach lacks character in the spinoffs, she was specifically pointing out her character in the main Mario games.

Well I still disagree with her, on Peach having no character in the main games, and her not including the spin-offs when talking about Peach.

Are you seriously equating the two?

Yes

It does when it's a constant in every single Zelda game.

I disagree

That's not what I'm talking about. Why did the developers write for her to be kidnapped right before the end of the game when it wasn't needed to move the story along? Why wouldn't Link and Sheik just trek to Ganon's castle together?

Zelda was prepped for the final battle, so she wanted to come clean to Link, and they talked, for that characterisation n' shit.
But I'm sure none of that matters to you, since the point is "she got kidnapped ohnoes"

You're delusional if you think that the number of games with good female representation is even close to the number of games with good male representation.

Quality over Quantity.

[Chimmy Chonga]

Yes, racism and sexism will just poof away! Like magic! All we have to do is BELIEVE!

GATA RAISE AWARENESS GAIS

[Elija2]

haha you're joking right? I know people, my own neighbors, who live off of food stamps and government assistance because it's a easy life. Public housing is accommodated to your income, so if you have a low income, you live for practically nothing. My Godmother lives in a 3 bedroom apartment for only 86 dollars a month because of public assistance. She gets all her food with, again, government assistance.

That's anecdotal. You can't say that it's true for the majority of black people, especially since many of them really are poor.

Yes, I do, because "WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING LEFT BEHIND" doesn't make a good headline, and it doesn't sell.

No you don't, you're just making shit up with no evidence.

Again, as a black person taking college level courses in the 11th grade, I can personally say that this argument is bullshit.

Well I guess your anecdotal evidence is more reliable that actual research.

You have to realize the profession this woman is in, and the type of works she does. So yes, I would assume it would be easy for her to move out from whatever situation she is, I mean, if I was a parent, i'd want to have the best for my kids, regardless of poverty, wouldn't you? If I was in a state that was notoriously racist, why would I want to stay there? There are far better places to live in america that are very cheap and affordable, you just have to know where to look.

Exactly. If she had the ability to move away, she likely would have. And yet many black people still live in these cities.

It is going to exist forever.

You can't expect everywhere, everyone, and everything to be flowers and butterflies.

It is if people like you keep coming up with terrible excuses to defend it.

No
games are an interactive medium to entertain, that is not limited to making you feel good.

Well it's purpose certainly isn't to demean your gender.

Which is happening, maybe not at the speed or frequency you want, but it's happening, and we're playing and loving them.

Yes, because people like Anita are advocating for them.

Male writer
Male writes about saving a woman
Not hard to figure out.

And does that make it not sexist?

Don't tell Bowser what to want, Who are you to tell Bowser what to want?

Bowser is a fictional character, he can want whatever Nintendo wants him to want. For whatever reason Nintendo choose to make him want Peach over and over again.

Well I still disagree with her, on Peach having no character in the main games, and her not including the spin-offs when talking about Peach.

I don't really see how you can disagree. What characterization does Peach have in the main games?

Her whole point was that Peach is treated differently in the main games than she is in the spinoffs.

Yes

Bowser being a villain doesn't demean him. Peach being the damsel in distress does demean her.

Zelda was prepped for the final battle, so she wanted to come clean to Link, and they talked, for that characterisation n' shit.
But I'm sure none of that matters to you, since the point is "she got kidnapped ohnoes"

She could have come clean without exposing herself.

Quality over Quantity.

The quantity of quality games with good male representation is much higher than the quantity of quality games with good female representation.

[Hakudamashi]

Bowser being a villain doesn't demean him. Peach being the damsel in distress does demean her.

If Bowser being a big selfish jerk that kidnaps women doesn't demean him, then Peach not being a tough girl that can't slay monsters doesn't demean her.
Not to me.
[/quote]

It is if people like you keep coming up with terrible excuses to defend it.

u wot?

Well it's purpose certainly isn't to demean your gender.

Unless the developer wants it to be so.

Yes, because people like Anita are advocating for them.

My main source is totalbuscuit and the brainscratchcomms.

And does that make it not sexist?

The better question is "Do I care?" And the answer is "no."

Bowser is a fictional character

If you're gonna bring that up, then why should we care about any of them? They're just fictional figments of imagination made realised through technology created for the purpose of engaging the player to play through the video game.
Which is more reason for the damsel in distress trope
"We gotta get players to give a shit, what do?"
"Make 'em save a pretty lady"
"Got it"

I don't really see how you can disagree. What characterization does Peach have in the main games?

I already said, go back.

Her whole point was that Peach is treated differently in the main games than she is in the spinoffs.

So is everyone, cause Bowser's not being a dick in the case of the sports games
In terms of the RPGs, she's not treated different, they just made them talk more.

She could have come clean without exposing herself.

Well she wanted to expose herself, deal with it.

The quantity of quality games with good male representation is much higher than the quantity of quality games with good female representation.

There may be less, but there's still alot, and more coming, so I'm comfortable.

[shadowDOESrock]

It is if people like you keep coming up with terrible excuses to defend it.

... I don't think you understand how the world functions outside of your bubble.

Well, you certainly lost my attention at this very moment, so I'm done.

[Hakudamashi]

so I'm done.

You've said that before...

[Elija2]

u wot?

You yourself even said that you don't care if sexism and racism are portrayed in games.

Unless the developer wants it to be so.

Okay, but by overusing sexist tropes they are being demeaning to women.

The better question is "Do I care?" And the answer is "no."

So again, you don't care if women are terribly represented in games.

If you're gonna bring that up, then why should we care about any of them? They're just fictional figments of imagination made realised through technology created for the purpose of engaging the player to play through the video game.
Which is more reason for the damsel in distress trope
"We gotta get players to give a shit, what do?"
"Make 'em save a pretty lady"
"Got it"

I'm saying that he doesn't have to aid in perpetuating sexist tropes but that's how he's written. It could just as easily be "Make 'em save a magic space rock." You can't say "that's not what Bowser wants" when what Bowser wants can be anything the writers want it to be.

I already said, go back.

You said that Peach's characterization is that she's a princess, but that information only exists to contextualize Mario's story. What characterization does she have that exists for her own sake?

So is everyone, cause Bowser's not being a dick in the case of the sports games
In terms of the RPGs, she's not treated different, they just made them talk more.

I mean that she's not treated as lesser than anyone else. In the main games she's treated as less than a freaking toad.

If Bowser being a big selfish jerk that kidnaps women doesn't demean him, then Peach not being a tough girl that can't slay monsters doesn't demean her.

Being a big selfish jerk isn't demeaning.

Well she wanted to expose herself, deal with it.

She doesn't want anything, she's a fictional character. She has no agency. Everything she does is because she was written that way. If she does something dumb, you can't say "it's cause she wanted to do that." No, her writers wanted her to do that.

There may be less, but there's still alot, and more coming, so I'm comfortable.

So I guess you have people like Anita to thank for that?

... I don't think you understand how the world functions outside of your bubble.

Says the person who doesn't consider the word "jap" to be offensive because nobody he knows minds it, and says the person who thinks that the use of sexist tropes against women in videogames doesn't affect our perception of women in real life. Or at least that's what you said in the last thread we had about sexism, which interestingly doesn't seem to exist anymore. I wonder why.

[Hakudamashi]

Okay, but by overusing sexist tropes they are being demeaning to women.

Well we're at an impasse. I don't find being saved demeaning,

So again, you don't care if women are terribly represented in games.

I don't care that they exist, no.

I'm saying that he doesn't have to aid in perpetuating sexist tropes but that's how he's written. It could just as easily be "Make 'em save a magic space rock." You can't say "that's not what Bowser wants" when what Bowser wants can be anything the writers want it to be.

She doesn't want anything, she's a fictional character. She has no agency. Everything she does is because she was written that way. If she does something dumb, you can't say "it's cause she wanted to do that." No, her writers wanted her to do that.

If stripping away everything about a character and seeing them as nothing more than puppets of their writers is how you enjoy your video games, then have fun with that.
That's now how I think.

You said that Peach's characterization is that she's a princess, but that information only exists to contextualize Mario's story. What characterization does she have that exists for her own sake?

Being gentle, soft-spoken, graceful, ditzy, liking gardens and a bit of a ditz are not things inherent with being a Princess, that's who Peach is, and she's also good at baking, that's her skill. She has traits and characterisation to define her as Princess Peach Toadstool, so say she has no character is just incorrect, whether or not she has enough character for you is a different issue.

I mean that she's not treated as lesser than anyone else. In the main games she's treated as less than a freaking toad.

How'd you figure that?

Being a big selfish jerk isn't demeaning.

By your standards
But by my standards, I think it's demeaning that this male goes to the lengths of violence to get what he wants. And what does he want? Women and power
Everything always boils down to women and power. Why is a man's motivation always women, or power, sometimes both? Men can be more complex than that, they have other interests than women and power.
And why is he angry? Why are men always so angry? We don't even get context why he's so angry, he just is.
It's demeaning that the man is always the aggro jerk that makes like difficult for everyone, always for women and power, because men totally have no other motivations and don't know how to think rationally.

But hey, that's just my opinion, my take on what I find demeaning.

So I guess you have people like Anita to thank for that?

I dunno, do I? What was her role in helping me find all these games? Did she help develop these games? Is she a writing consultant?

[Elija2]

Well we're at an impasse. I don't find being saved demeaning,

I've explained it to you a dozen times that it's more than about just being saved. Are you deliberately being obtuse?

I don't care that they exist, no.

What a great person you are.

If stripping away everything about a character and seeing them as nothing more than puppets of their writers is how you enjoy your video games, then have fun with that.
That's now how I think.

But that's exactly what they are, whether you see them as that or not. Obviously I don't play a game and casually think about this stuff, but if we're analyzing games then that's how I'm going to analyze the characters; as tools for storytelling.

Being gentle, soft-spoken, graceful, ditzy, liking gardens and a bit of a ditz are not things inherent with being a Princess, that's who Peach is, and she's also good at baking, that's her skill. She has traits and characterisation to define her as Princess Peach Toadstool, so say she has no character is just incorrect, whether or not she has enough character for you is a different issue.

How did you learn all these things about Peach, and what was the context of them being presented to you?

Did you learn that she was gentle when she refused to struggle while being kidnapped? Did you learn that she was soft-spoken when she thanked Mario for saving her? Did you learn that she was graceful when she gently floated down from her cage? Did you learn that she's good at baking because she invited Mario over for cake (so that he could witness her kidnapping)?

How'd you figure that?

Because toads are actually playable, and when they're not they're seen as aiding in her search.

By your standards
But by my standards, I think it's demeaning that this male goes to the lengths of violence to get what he wants. And what does he want? Women and power
Everything always boils down to women and power. Why is a man's motivation always women, or power, sometimes both? Men can be more complex than that, they have other interests than women and power.
And why is he angry? Why are men always so angry? We don't even get context why he's so angry, he just is.
It's demeaning that the man is always the aggro jerk that makes like difficult for everyone, always for women and power, because men totally have no other motivations and don't know how to think rationally.

But hey, that's just my opinion, my take on what I find demeaning.

Bowser is the bad guy, he's supposed to be mean. You're not supposed to think that his attitude is right.

And are you seriously suggesting that women getting kidnapped by men all the time is sexist against men?

I dunno, do I? What was her role in helping me find all these games? Did she help develop these games? Is she a writing consultant?

She's raising awareness and causing developers to rethink their writing. That's her role.

[Chimmy Chonga]

Smells like fedora in this thread.

[Elija2]

Smells like fedora in this thread.

Why are you posting in this thread if you're contributing nothing to it but stupid insults? Is it because you're unable to actually attack my points so you have to resort to attacking my character?

And for the record, fedoras are an MRA stereotype, not a feminist stereotype. Even your insults don't make sense.

[Darkyellowz]

Why are you posting in this thread if you're contributing nothing to it but stupid insults? Is it because you're unable to actually attack my points so you have to resort to attacking my character?

And for the record, fedoras are an MRA stereotype, not a feminist stereotype. Even your insults don't make sense.

Dude, holy fucking shit. No need to get THAT fucking angry. I went through the thread, and everyone's opinions are shit. You're always so fucking biased, and I hate that. So if you think someone can't attack your "points," then think again.

Also, stop being a shit cunt, and talking everything so hard. Only shits are supposed to make you angry, not the internet.

[Chimmy Chonga]

Why are you posting in this thread if you're contributing nothing to it but stupid insults? Is it because you're unable to actually attack my points so you have to resort to attacking my character?

And for the record, fedoras are an MRA stereotype, not a feminist stereotype. Even your insults don't make sense.

Holy hell calm down, lmao. I haven't been taking this thread seriously enough to actually attack your "points" so I was just being silly to see how long it'd take for you to not ignore me. There's really nothing to say that nobody else has said already, you're just a brick wall that blocks all logic and proof and just continues saying "butbut muh feminisms". What you believe is "feminism" and "social justice" is so extremely skewed there's no point in arguing, you'll just dance around what we say and continue endlessly to try and "win" this argument, which I hate to say, is draining any shred of respect people on this site have for you.

And for the record, fedoras are typically symbols for socially awkward people who believe they're superior to other people... or socially awkward men that try very hard to get into a lady's pants. Ever hear the phrase "In this moment, I am euphoric" or "m'lady"?

[Elija2]

Dude, holy fucking shit. No need to get THAT fucking angry. I went through the thread, and everyone's opinions are shit. You're always so fucking biased, and I hate that. So if you think someone can't attack your "points," then think again.

Also, stop being a shit cunt, and talking everything so hard. Only shits are supposed to make you angry, not the internet.

How am I biased? I mean, obviously I'm going to defend my point if I think it's right. How is that a bad thing?

Holy hell calm down, lmao. I haven't been taking this thread seriously enough to actually attack your "points" so I was just being silly to see how long it'd take for you to not ignore me. There's really nothing to say that nobody else has said already, you're just a brick wall that blocks all logic and proof and just continues saying "butbut muh feminisms". What you believe is "feminism" and "social justice" is so extremely skewed there's no point in arguing, you'll just dance around what we say and continue endlessly to try and "win" this argument, which I hate to say, is draining any shred of respect people on this site have for you.

And for the record, fedoras are typically symbols for socially awkward people who believe they're superior to other people... or socially awkward men that try very hard to get into a lady's pants. Ever hear the phrase "In this moment, I am euphoric" or "m'lady"?

I'm not dancing around any arguments. I'm sorry if it seems that way to you because you just can't fathom how a common trope used in videogames could be sexist. But with people like you and Haku who think that sexism in games isn't even a problem, I don't know why I'm bothering to explain it.

[Chimmy Chonga]

I'm not dancing around any arguments. I'm sorry if it seems that way to you because you just can't fathom how a common trope used in videogames could be sexist. But with people like you and Haku who think that sexism in games isn't even a problem, I don't know why I'm bothering to explain it.

Maybe no one else seeing it as sexist means it isn't a problem? It's not like playing Mario is going to make people shout out "YAY WOMEN ARE OBJECTS!" As someone who's been a huge video game player a majority of his life, including playing the games you consider sexist or racist, I don't think I've turned out "misogynistic". Essentially, people like you are MAKING this a problem.

[shadowDOESrock]

Says the person who doesn't consider the word "jap" to be offensive because nobody he knows minds it, and says the person who thinks that the use of sexist tropes against women in videogames doesn't affect our perception of women in real life. Or at least that's what you said in the last thread we had about sexism, which interestingly doesn't seem to exist anymore. I wonder why.

That's exactly why I think there's a certain lack of understanding about the world- about people, and about the rest of the world on your side.

And that topic was fused with this one, as the thematics were similar. But thank you.

[Meme Master Flex]

That's anecdotal. You can't say that it's true for the majority of black people, especially since many of them really are poor.

You have your evidence from fucking articles you've Googled. When you've lived in a homeless shelter, when you've actually lived in the projects, when you've lived in a goddamn ghetto, then you can fucking speak. I've talked to many of these people before, I know who they are and how they think. Again, what the fuck have you done?

No you don't, you're just making shit up with no evidence.

My evidence is what I've seen with my own eyes, if I have to actually go out and interview these people for me to make a fucking point, I will. I've been told to my fucking face why these people do the things they do. Because you can find articles on google doesn't make my argument invalid. I've had to fucking interview these people for my journalism class, I know why because I've sat there and I've talked to them, not found stupid fucking articles made by people who don't understand what they're talking about.

Well I guess your anecdotal evidence is more reliable that actual research.

Although these classes are pretty much filled with other black kids besides me, because my evidence is anecdotal, and not from my own personal experiences from actually being there, and not in some fucking basement thinking I know a thing about the world.

Exactly. If she had the ability to move away, she likely would have. And yet many black people still live in these cities.

Okay, yeah no, I'm fucking done. You've done nothing but dismiss my arguments and just put up your own form of bullshit to defend yourself. You really can't fucking talk about this situation until you've experienced it yourself, and you've been there to talk to these people, to actually have empathy for how they feel and why they do what they do. If you want to keep pulling up articles from a google search to back up your fallacious and flawed claims, feel free to do so, because obviously it makes you feel better about yourself. Unlike you, I've actually lived in these places, I've been through what I've shown, and I can fucking say that half the points you've brought up are absolute garbage and you really need to reevaluate why just about everything you said is bullshit. When you've lived through shitty circumstances, when you've seen your friend's parents go to jail for committing fraud, because she wanted to live a comfortable lifestyle, then you can fucking talk like you know something. When your mom's friend constantly asks you to take your mother's fucking EBT card so she can get something to eat, and you're only 8, then you can fucking talk. When you have to go day by fucking day wondering where your friend went only to find out that they dropped out to fucking sell weed, then you can fucking speak. You haven't been through tough shit, and you want to talk like you can fucking speak? lmfao get the fuck out of my face i'm done with this conversation

[Hakudamashi]

I've explained it to you a dozen times that it's more than about just being saved. Are you deliberately being obtuse?

rightrightright, cause it's a woman.

What a great person you are.

I never said, or implied that I'm a great person, but thank you.

Did you learn that she was gentle when she refused to struggle while being kidnapped? Did you learn that she was soft-spoken when she thanked Mario for saving her? Did you learn that she was graceful when she gently floated down from her cage? Did you learn that she's good at baking because she invited Mario over for cake (so that he could witness her kidnapping)?

I learned that she's gentle from how she addresses and interacts with those around her, I mean, she sure as hell ain't rough, or cruel, or rowdy.
I learned she's soft spoken, cause she's literally soft-spoken whenever she speaks, even her shouts have low volume.
I learned she's graceful cause, just look at how she walks, she takes small steps, even when running(She's always one of the slower characters in almost every game she's playable, this is clearly a conscious decision), and she's every so minimalistic with how she moves her hands, she doesn't just, fling them about, even when she's surprised or scared (which again, carriers over into the spin-offs, her victory animations are never as flamboyant or wild as everyone else, this again has to be a conscious decision)
I learned that she's into baking in Mario 64 when she invited Mario over to try some. I learned she's good at baking in Galaxy 2 when Bowser straight up admitted he went to this length of getting huge n' shit just to eat a giant fucking cake made by her.

Because toads are actually playable, and when they're not they're seen as aiding in her search.

I don't think not being playable is a depiction of worth, and in most games they're in a panic begging Mario to do something, Captain Toad on the other hand is the one that does shit.

Bowser is the bad guy, he's supposed to be mean. You're not supposed to think that his attitude is right.

So when it comes to villains, you can look past the fact that they're almost always men?

And are you seriously suggesting that women getting kidnapped by men all the time is sexist against men?

Change the wording to
"And are you seriously suggesting that men kidnapping women all the time is sexist against men?
Then yes, I did indeed just suggest that.

She's raising awareness and causing developers to rethink their writing. That's her role.

You're gonna have to do more convincing than that
I don't believe characters like Milla, Lucina, Princess Hilda, and Edea wouldn't exist without her "services"

But with people like you and Haku who think that sexism in games isn't even a problem,

No
I never disagreed that sexism in a game is a problem.
I disagree on what you consider sexist.

[Meme Master Flex]

This pretty much puts together how I feel about this.

[dreamcasthime]

This pretty much puts together how I feel about this.

Morgan is my true lord and savior

[Hakudamashi]

Well ofcourse
He's totally God.

[Elija2]

Alright, I'm going to concede some of my points. Are Zelda and Peach damsels in distress? Yes. Does that make them bad characters? No (although it certainly doesn't help). Are only women depicted as damsels in distress? No. However, the problem is that women are overwhelmingly depicted this way, much more than men are. These negative tropes are sexist because they are used almost exclusively with female characters. And when a group of people (in this case, women) are disproportionately depicted in a certain way, it means that this is how a majority of people see them as.

Maybe no one else seeing it as sexist means it isn't a problem? It's not like playing Mario is going to make people shout out "YAY WOMEN ARE OBJECTS!" As someone who's been a huge video game player a majority of his life, including playing the games you consider sexist or racist, I don't think I've turned out "misogynistic". Essentially, people like you are MAKING this a problem.

But a bunch of people do see it as sexist, that's why they're pointing it out.

And you guys are defending sexist tropes by saying "So what? It happens all the time!" so clearly it's affecting how you think female characters should be depicted.

You have your evidence from fucking articles you've Googled. When you've lived in a homeless shelter, when you've actually lived in the projects, when you've lived in a goddamn ghetto, then you can fucking speak. I've talked to many of these people before, I know who they are and how they think. Again, what the fuck have you done?

My evidence is what I've seen with my own eyes, if I have to actually go out and interview these people for me to make a fucking point, I will. I've been told to my fucking face why these people do the things they do. Because you can find articles on google doesn't make my argument invalid. I've had to fucking interview these people for my journalism class, I know why because I've sat there and I've talked to them, not found stupid fucking articles made by people who don't understand what they're talking about.

Yes, actual research. That beats your personal experiences, sorry.

Although these classes are pretty much filled with other black kids besides me, because my evidence is anecdotal, and not from my own personal experiences from actually being there, and not in some fucking basement thinking I know a thing about the world.

So, what, you think these statistics are false? You're literally brushing off actual research because "That's not what I've seen!"

Okay, yeah no, I'm fucking done. You've done nothing but dismiss my arguments and just put up your own form of bullshit to defend yourself. You really can't fucking talk about this situation until you've experienced it yourself, and you've been there to talk to these people, to actually have empathy for how they feel and why they do what they do. If you want to keep pulling up articles from a google search to back up your fallacious and flawed claims, feel free to do so, because obviously it makes you feel better about yourself. Unlike you, I've actually lived in these places, I've been through what I've shown, and I can fucking say that half the points you've brought up are absolute garbage and you really need to reevaluate why just about everything you said is bullshit. When you've lived through shitty circumstances, when you've seen your friend's parents go to jail for committing fraud, because she wanted to live a comfortable lifestyle, then you can fucking talk like you know something. When your mom's friend constantly asks you to take your mother's fucking EBT card so she can get something to eat, and you're only 8, then you can fucking talk. When you have to go day by fucking day wondering where your friend went only to find out that they dropped out to fucking sell weed, then you can fucking speak. You haven't been through tough shit, and you want to talk like you can fucking speak? lmfao get the fuck out of my face i'm done with this conversation

I'm not dismissing your arguments, you're dismissing mine just because they don't apply to your life. You're saying that actual research performed by experts is wrong just because you think it is.

This pretty much puts together how I feel about this.

Yeah, black people are poor because they don't work hard enough. I guess that means that black people are lazier than white people, right? He even says that race doesn't play a part in income distribution which is objectively false.

[jkid101094]

Hey Eli, you wanna join us for Smash bros?

[Elija2]

Hey Eli, you wanna join us for Smash bros?

I'm at my parents' house for the week and their internet is pretty unreliable so I'm gonna pass.

[jkid101094]

I'm at my parents' house for the week and their internet is pretty unreliable so I'm gonna pass.

Well alrighty the, hun. We should play some when you get home then.

[Elija2]

Well alrighty the, hun. We should play some when you get home then.

Sure thing, sweetie.

[shadowDOESrock]

Well alrighty the, hun. We should play some when you get home then.

Sure thing, sweetie.

D'aw, what a cute couple

[Elija2]

D'aw, what a cute couple

I...it's not as if I like jkid-senpai or anything!!

[Hakudamashi]

However, the problem is that women are overwhelmingly depicted this way, much more than men are. These negative tropes are sexist because they are used almost exclusively with female characters. And when a group of people (in this case, women) are disproportionately depicted in a certain way, it means that this is how a majority of people see them as.

I will agree that it is more common that women are saved than men, but I wouldn't call it sexist. Sexist to me, is if the situation changes or becomes "wrong" when only the genders are swapped.
If you swapped the genders around in Mario and Zelda, nothing would really change, someone's still kidnapped, there's still a big bad, and someone makes things right. Sexist to me, is like in those romantic comedy examples I gave before where there's a couple and one is being demanding of the other, if the demanding one is a woman, you're supposed to root for her, if he's a man, he's the villain, same scenario, same circumstance, but swap the genders and suddenly the tone changes. You know what I mean?

In terms of people seeing women like that, I personally put more blame on parenting than the media. It all starts at home, including one's way of thinking. I believe that one's true role model should be their mother and father, and they should not only set an example, but also be there with the child as he/she grows and forms a mind of his/her own. Yes, I know a parent can only do soo much what with the internet and public schools and all, but they should strive to be with their children and teach them the rights and wrongs so when they are challenged in the real world, they can spot what is "right" and what is "wrong", including how to see women, skin colour, disabilities, accents, etc.
And I don't encourage beating around the bush when they ask questions.

But the media is everywhere, and there's no guarantee the child will ask questions when they see things like this, so I can understand if you more want to blame the media.

I'm at my parents' house for the week and their internet is pretty unreliable so I'm gonna pass.

huh
Where do you stay normally?

[Elija2]

I will agree that it is more common that women are saved than men, but I wouldn't call it sexist. Sexist to me, is if the situation changes or becomes "wrong" when only the genders are swapped.
If you swapped the genders around in Mario and Zelda, nothing would really change, someone's still kidnapped, there's still a big bad, and someone makes things right. Sexist to me, is like in those romantic comedy examples I gave before where there's a couple and one is being demanding of the other, if the demanding one is a woman, you're supposed to root for her, if he's a man, he's the villain, same scenario, same circumstance, but swap the genders and suddenly the tone changes. You know what I mean?

In terms of people seeing women like that, I personally put more blame on parenting than the media. It all starts at home, including one's way of thinking. I believe that one's true role model should be their mother and father, and they should not only set an example, but also be there with the child as he/she grows and forms a mind of his/her own. Yes, I know a parent can only do soo much what with the internet and public schools and all, but they should strive to be with their children and teach them the rights and wrongs so when they are challenged in the real world, they can spot what is "right" and what is "wrong", including how to see women, skin colour, disabilities, accents, etc.
And I don't encourage beating around the bush when they ask questions.

But the media is everywhere, and there's no guarantee the child will ask questions when they see things like this, so I can understand if you more want to blame the media.

It is sexist though because being a damsel in distress is demeaning and it predominantly happens to women.

The parent can't be blamed for everything their child thinks, that's just unfair. And besides, most parents probably have the same views too.

huh
Where do you stay normally?

I rent a place near my university.

[Hakudamashi]

It is sexist though because being a damsel in distress is demeaning and it predominantly happens to women.

Aaaaand, I just don't think it happening predominantly to women is sexist, cause when it happens to a man, the scenario roughly stays the same.
And they also don't go about saying she got kidnapped because she's a woman, but that this person got kidnapped, and she's also a woman.

1:30 is what I would call sexist, he didn't say this got screwed up because she's Kitara and that's what she happens to do, he said things got screwed up because she's a girl.

And that what I meant when I said "drawing attention to it". If the show or game or whatever doesn't care about the character's gender or skin colour or whatever, then neither will I, but if they're gonna draw attention to it, then I have a problem, unless they're going somewhere with it.

I don't factor in predominance in sexism and all that stuff.

The parent can't be blamed for everything their child thinks, that's just unfair.

I can't blame them for everything their child thinks and does, true, but I do blame them for the "groundwork", like making a child play an M rated video game before he understands the concept of murder.

And besides, most parents probably have the same views too.

It is also likely those parents had bad parents, and those parents had bad parents, and so on and so forth, each passing on a negative and problematic view of the world across generations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSgY_pscJ8k&list=UUOCs7lAn_5fZWhnqMOOYfXQ
It's relevant I swear.

I rent a place near my university.

And it has the better internet?
How odd.

[shadowDOESrock]

I can't blame them for everything their child thinks and does, true, but I do blame them for the "groundwork", like making a child play an M rated video game before he understands the concept of murder.
It is also likely those parents had bad parents, and those parents had bad parents, and so on and so forth, each passing on a negative and problematic view of the world across generations.

Pfff...

[Elija2]

Aaaaand, I just don't think it happening predominantly to women is sexist, cause when it happens to a man, the scenario roughly stays the same.
And they also don't go about saying she got kidnapped because she's a woman, but that this person got kidnapped, and she's also a woman.

1:30 is what I would call sexist, he didn't say this got screwed up because she's Kitara and that's what she happens to do, he said things got screwed up because she's a girl.

And that what I meant when I said "drawing attention to it". If the show or game or whatever doesn't care about the character's gender or skin colour or whatever, then neither will I, but if they're gonna draw attention to it, then I have a problem, unless they're going somewhere with it.

I don't factor in predominance in sexism and all that stuff.

No, it's not the same. When a woman is a damsel in distress it reinforces the widespread belief that they are naturally weak. When a man is captured, it doesn't reinforce any negative beliefs.

And many games do bring up that the person being kidnapped is a woman.

I can't blame them for everything their child thinks and does, true, but I do blame them for the "groundwork", like making a child play an M rated video game before he understands the concept of murder.

Okay, but you'd have to be naive to think that the media doesn't have a major impact on how people perceive things.

And it has the better internet?
How odd.

Probably because my university is in a city with better internet infrastructure than the small town that I grew up in.

Also I'm paying for really good internet.

[shadowDOESrock]

No, it's not the same. When a woman is a damsel in distress it reinforces the widespread belief that they are naturally weak. When a man is captured, it doesn't reinforce any negative beliefs.

So, we should stop having women kidnapped?

Okay, but you'd have to be naive to think that the media doesn't have a major impact on how people perceive things.

Yeah, to dumb people...

[jkid101094]

Yeah, to dumb people...

My mom still thinks reality TV is unscripted.

[Elija2]

So, we should stop having women kidnapped?

No, but we should stop doing it all the time.

Yeah, to dumb people...

Uh, no. You'd be surprised at how much you've been subtly influenced by media.

I mean, think about it. Why do so many games use the damsel in distress trope? Because they think it's normal. They've seen the trope being used in so many things that they don't even think twice about it.

[shadowDOESrock]

Uh, no. You'd be surprised at how much you've been subtly influenced by media.

Try me. (And also, ditto)

I mean, think about it. Why do so many games use the damsel in distress trope? Because they think it's normal. They've seen the trope being used in so many things that they don't even think twice about it.

Not because it's normal, because it's easy. It's easy way out. It's easiest and laziest way out and to write. This is just lazy writing. Not because women are weak, or the belief that women are weak.

Because that's the easiest way to get someone engaged, because (most) know how it feels to lose someone they love. And most would fight for someone they love.

The only thing even easier would be a revenge plot, which usually just results in a love interest / parents / father figure dying in the first section.

[Hakudamashi]

No, it's not the same. When a woman is a damsel in distress it reinforces the widespread belief that they are naturally weak. When a man is captured, it doesn't reinforce any negative beliefs.

I'm talking in the context of the story.

And many games do bring up that the person being kidnapped is a woman.

Never said there aren't, but Mario and Zelda are not those games.

Okay, but you'd have to be naive to think that the media doesn't have a major impact on how people perceive things.

Well, at the very least, it's both.
The media and parenting turned Jamaica into a country of whores. I just put more emphasis on parenting.

No, but we should stop doing it all the time.

I can't agree on "should", it's up to what the devs want to do.
But for the devs that do care, then by all means raise awareness so they're more conscious about their writing.

I mean, think about it. Why do so many games use the damsel in distress trope? Because they think it's normal. They've seen the trope being used in so many things that they don't even think twice about it.

Or it could be because guys like to save women, and most devs(to my knowledge) are men.

[Elija2]

Not because it's normal, because it's easy. It's easy way out. It's easiest and laziest way out and to write. This is just lazy writing. Not because women are weak, or the belief that women are weak.

Because that's the easiest way to get someone engaged, because (most) know how it feels to lose someone they love. And most would fight for someone they love.

The only thing even easier would be a revenge plot, which usually just results in a love interest / parents / father figure dying in the first section.

Why is it easy? Because it's been done so many times that people know it's a safe bet for a story (aka it's been normalized). Why isn't it men instead of women? Because people see women as helpless and needing rescue (aka it's sexist).

I'm talking in the context of the story.

The context of the story doesn't matter.

The media and parenting turned Jamaica into a country of whores. I just put more emphasis on parenting.

Okay, and we should educate both.

I can't agree on "should", it's up to what the devs want to do.
But for the devs that do care, then by all means raise awareness so they're more conscious about their writing.

What do you mean you can't agree on "should"?

It would nearly unanimously be seen as a better thing but you don't think developers should do it because of creative freedom?

Or it could be because guys like to save women, and most devs(to my knowledge) are men.

Well I'm sure that's how the trope first came about, but for it to persist as a common trope still to this day? It being so common has to have assisted in it's continued use.

[shadowDOESrock]

Why is it easy? Because it's been done so many times that people know it's a safe bet for a story (aka it's been normalized). Why isn't it men instead of women? Because people see women as helpless and needing rescue (aka it's sexist).

I was searching a .gif where someone throws away the papers, but I have over 1200 gifs saved in my dropbox and couldnt find it.

So, here's one of you getting scared

[Hakudamashi]

Why is it easy?

Saving a person is a pretty good motivator. I can't think of a better, quicker one, can you?
Why women? Cause the writers are men.

Okay, and we should educate both.

You keep on raisin dat awareness.

What do you mean you can't agree on "should"?

It would nearly unanimously be seen as a better thing but you don't think developers should do it because of creative freedom?

Yes
Creative Freedom
It is a right that all artists should have.
An artist should be allowed to make what he or she wants, and have his or her work find it's audience.

Well I'm sure that's how the trope first came about, but for it to persist as a common trope still to this day? It being so common has to have assisted in it's continued use.

Or it could be because most devs are still men.

[Elija2]

Yes
Creative Freedom
It is a right that all artists should have.
An artist should be allowed to make what he or she wants, and have his or her work find it's audience.

But what do you think? Do you think that developers should use less sexist tropes in their games?

[Hakudamashi]

I just want good characters all around.
Personally the tropes themselves don't bother me unless it's like World War Blue where they use every fucking trope in the fucking book and don't do one fucking inventive, imaginative thing with any of them, and then half ass it on top of that



I too have my limits on what I tolerate when it comes to tropes, and yes there are some decisions developers make that I rather they don't do, never again if possible.

But to properly answer your question, yes, I think they should use less sexist tropes in their writing.
But I don't find "damsel in distress" to be sexist.

[shadowDOESrock]

But to properly answer your question, yes, I think they should use less sexist tropes in their writing.
But I don't find "damsel in distress" to be sexist.

This also applies to me, to a certain extend.
Although I do find the "damsel in distress" trope in itself sexist, I dont think every "example" of it is.

But that depends on what I play / watch.

[Hakudamashi]

Although I do find the "damsel in distress" trope in itself sexist, I dont think every "example" of it is.

But that depends on what I play / watch.

Yeah that, more that
Thanks Kyo.